On P2P payments from their FAQ: “While the payment appears to be directly between wallets, technically the operation is intermediated by the payment service provider which will typically be legally required to identify the recipient of the funds before allowing the transaction to complete.”
How about, no? How about me paying €50 to my friend for fixing my bike doesn’t need to be intermediated, KYCed, and blocked if they don’t approve of it or know who the recipient is? How about it’s none of the government’s business how I split the bill at dinner with friends? This level of surveillance is madness, especially coming from an app that touts “privacy” as a feature.
GNU Taler is a trojan horse to enable CBDC adoption. They are the friendly face to an absolutely terrifying level of government control in our lives funded by the same government that tries every year to implement chat control. Imagine your least favourite political party gaining power. Now imagine they can see and control every transaction you make. No thanks.
GNU Taler is not your enemy. It may not solve every problem you’d like it to, but its adoption by the masses would be a vast improvement in privacy compared to the current state of commerce in every country where it has the slightest chance of happening any time soon.
I have a feeling its adoption would bring the end of cash a big step closer.
The suggestions like this also scare me in that it might require you to carry a smartphone all the time for things as basic as payment.
This is totally unrelated to GNU Taler though, and if it comes to that you will be happy to have GNU Taler as an privacy preserving option.
When it comes to in-person payment, would Taler be usable without a mobile device? Say, with just a card like normal banking? I would have it much rather coexist with cash anyway.
But yea, sounds like an improvement when it comes to online payments.
The person accepting the money needs online access, or at least some sort of way to receive a validation code. As for the buyer, I think currently there is no implementation of it, but according to my understanding of it it would be technically possible to load Taler tokens on a card chip and use them from that.
Ah, that does make it better but still concerning - that would stop ME from also being paid in cash)
Not any closer than already existing commercial cashless payment solutions (which are much, much worse for privacy).
Oh, I just realized that OP is the crypto-guy.
You people realize that most crypto is even less private? Every transaction ever can be viewed by everyone, forever, by design.
Sure, a crypto wallet might not have your name on it when created, but good luck buying or selling any without giving away your identity.
Monero fixes this
Lemmy is ease for glowies to astroturf.
Monero completely removes any kind of accountability.
Great! Next they’ll say that for E2EE.
So does encryption, and peer to peer conversations, and talking to your neighbor, and trading things at the swap meet.
Requiring absolute central control removes freedom from people and removes accountability from governments.
For one Taler doesn’t enforce central control. Also it protects the identity of the person paying but not the seller. This means it is easy to hold a business accountable but hard to try and track customers. Overall this is a much healthier system that protects the consumer.
You people realize that most crypto is even less private? Every transaction ever can be viewed by everyone, forever, by design.
There’s some truth to this but it’s also not really the case.
- Each address is pseudononymous even in original Bitcoin.
- Bitcoin lightning transactions are completely opaque to the network, they are never on-chain. At this point, there are vastly more transactions on lightning than on-chain. They confirm instantly and are known only to your node, the receiver’s wallet, and intermediary nodes (if any). Lightning inherits security from the main chain while giving you sub-second transaction confirmation times.
- Monero exists, coinjoin (Bitcoin) exist, changing addresses and having multiple wallets exists, liquidity swaps exist. The chain analysis game is getting harder and more complex every year.
good luck
except there are many sites dedicated to doing exactly that. you can send cash in the mail, giftcards, exchange via other cryptocurrencies, etc.
False. Use Monero.
They said most
Also I don’t have a interest in buying drugs and weapons
I don’t have a interest in buying drugs and weapons
Ban cash when?
Cash is physical and can be traced. At the end of the day you need to send it or meet someone to transfer goods. That’s also why it is good for privacy as it is physical.
How are you tracing cash?
I guess he means the banknotes having individual numbers on them. However, that still doesn’t give full automatic traceability - between these being recorded, a lot can happen to the banknote.
Agreed. You can identify cash, but it doesn’t have traceability built in. So the private transactions between two people are only identifiable if you get the cash before and after the transaction. You don’t have any idea about the intermediate path it took
You’ll need a gun when the glowies go after you for not using Windows 12 with TPM 2.0 and latest updates applied.
That’s why we should be able to buy one legally
Yes. But the draw is that it is still leagues easier use privately than the traditional banking system. With cryptocurrency, you “only” need proper understanding of OPSEC. With banking system - you also need to break the law somewhere in the KYC process.
Yes, most crypto are totally useless, for privacy or anything else other than lottery and heating the home. But why are those discussed any further than just telling not to use them?
https://www.privacyguides.org/en/cryptocurrency/
Because everything in life has a trade-off, and talking about the utility, and the costs, is a reasonable thing to do. And yes there are ways to enable greater levels of privacy online using cryptocurrency then any other method available to us. So it is worth a discussion sometimes
CBDCs are coming whether you like it or not and a GNU Taler based payment system is currently our best mitigation strategy against them.
It’s pointless to compare GNU Taler to crypto-currencies as it is a payment system and not a pseudo-currency.
CBDCs are coming whether you like it or not and a GNU Taler based payment system is currently our best mitigation strategy against them.
The best mitigation strategy is to refuse to use them and to point out when systems, like Taler, are actively working to further their introduction of use. Using your national currency is mandatory to pay taxes, it’s not mandatory for anything else in most countries. We have the option to opt out, just like we do with every other privacy-attacking technology. Assuming it’s inevitable is how they win.
I didn’t say the use will be inevitable, and great if you try to opt out. But the majority are already using cashless payment systems, and will happily switch to a CBDC if it becomes available and promises lower fees than credit cards etc.
Yes, Taler by design allows identifiction of the receiver.
It does not reveal the sender.
It allows you to create and arbitrate your own tokens and to create your own “bank”.
Yeah, the fact that out payment system is so centralised is definitely a bad thing. But GNU Taler, from what I understand, is just trying to work within that system. It didn’t create the system, and it doesn’t have the power to replace it.
It didn’t create the system, and it doesn’t have the power to replace it.
But it does support the system by being a part of it
If only there was some other technology that came along that could :(
But then someone might misuse the privacy it would provide, potentially doing something that some people would consider wrong!
Can you imagine, if we gave people rights?! Like free speech? Or the right to not have their house raided by the government without cause? My god they’d probably abuse those too! We should take them all away just to be safe :p
I think you are misinterpreting things.
CBDC?
Central Bank Digital Currency. Its a controversial project by many central banks around the world to establish a digital cash alternative, but the current proposals are usually not very privacy friendly.
Sure, it’s worse than monero and cash in terms of privacy, but that’s not what it’s supposed to replace. There are plans to use Taler as an alternative to card payments in the EU and that would be a great improvement. Currently all payment data is visible to multiple of companies, the shop, the bank, and many middle man and is often sold off to other commerical entities. Taler would stop that.
Your first example is tax fraud if you hide it
Edit: it looks like you edited your post to state the guy repairing your bike is “your friend”.
Noone is going to go after him if he just fixes your bike. But if he fixes the bike of his 1000 friends each month, they will go after him if he didn’t declare it.
That may technically be true, but it’s currently very normalized. Do we actually want to denormalize it? Should the government know about every trivial transaction?
For small sum in-person payments, regular cash is still the best option and will continue to be so, GNU Taler or not.
There is a middle ground. Cash has a physical trace but it isn’t known by the government right away. We need digital cash that actually functions like cash.
not if they’re only covering the cost of parts
Which jurisdiction are you referring to? GNU Taler isn’t specific to any particular country or currency.
When crypto bros stop shilling anti-libre software, maybe i’ll start to care.
Funny how we’re big into privacy here, and then money comes up and lots of people are “wait no, not that kind of privacy.”
I do not like drugs and human trafficking.
Ah yes, must keep that war on drugs going, it’s totally worth sacrificing everyones’ privacy to make sure the Devil’s Cabbage is kept off the streets. Reefer Madness is epidemic.
And human trafficking, yes, we can’t have people sending remittances to their families in destitute foreign countries so that they might be able to afford to immigrate too. So many poor foreigners trying to get in!
Or maybe this is actually too complicated an issue to dismiss with a simple “if people have done nothing wrong they have nothing to hide?”
Let’s please not confuse human trafficking (you know, stuff akin to slave trade including sexual exploitation) to sending remittances.
Indeed, let’s not make that confusion. Like possiblylinux127 did.
They are either arguing in bad faith or so focused on ending all crime that they would remove free will and human autonomy in their pursuit.
Not to mention even in the most restrictive frame of existence like prison, where everything is controlled and observed, the very problems they are willing to sell our freedom to fix… Flourish!
Also … That implies you don’t like freedom, democracy, feeding refugees, medical care for the exploited, and over throwing dictatorships.
Everything has a trade-off, to only enable systems that have absolute central control, you invite central control of everything
No it doesn’t
I just have only seen Monero used for ransomware and dark web crime.
Oh,let me illustrate some of the uses cases your missing:
Pay for a VPN Mullvad
Support a operating system GrapheneOS
Support a desktop operating system Qubes
Support VLC
Support libremapping Organicmaps
Etc etc
Recently read an ELI5 of the digital euro and was pleasantly surprised. If it works as designed, you can perform offline payments from one device to another, which sounds like your use case. No central servers, no blockchain.
If you can do a P2P transaction like that, you need either a central server or a blockchain or equivalent to prevent double-spends. There is no other way. Satoshi’s innovation for Bitcoin was developing a system (blockchain) that can do this without a central server.
I don’t know how the technical implementation will work, but here is a post I found.
The idea is that you transfer money from the bank to your device, just like withdrawing cash from an ATM. Transferring money from one wallet to another should be able to be offline.
It seems like privacy is a priority, if only to satisfy privacy groups and improve acceptance.
You still need to be able to defend against double spends, meaning I digitally copy my wallet and give two people the same 5€.
GNU Taler is inferior anyway, and it has been existing for many years with exact zero of usage.
Imagine reinventing Chaumian e-cash 40 year later and promoting it as a innovative approach in digital payments.
It takes time to do it right. I have no idea if it will be usable with real currencies at some point but for now you can use it with your own made up currency.
/c/Libertarian is that way:
/c/Cryptocurrency is over there:
Only the correct kinds of privacy are allowed here, after all.
