Always remember
“The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.”
There’s a lot of bullshit in the Star Citizen controversy. Hating it generates a lot of revenue for Massively and The Escapist (two of the worst tabloids in the industry). Just play it once during a free fly before you judge. If everyone did that, these articles wouldn’t exist.
And how exactly does a free fly invalidate the article about refunds requiring an NDA? Nobody is questioning whether there’s is some semblance of a game in a project that has been in development for over a decade, it would be a massive red flag if there’s wasn’t. What people are questioning is why is there a secret shop page that players can access ONLY after they’ve spent a thousand dollars on the game, and then another secret shop page after they’ve spent 10k? What’s up with the predatory practices?
Is your response “No no no, don’t look at those controversies. Look at how pretty the game is”? A free fly event doesn’t invalidate the claim that you might need to sign an NDA to get a refund. It doesn’t invalidate the claim that the devs had to pull 7 day work weeks. There are loads of criticism that the free fly does not address at all. These articles would exist even if everyone tried the free fly.
From my experience games that get “hate articles” are games that are already doing questionable things. You don’t get such articles circulating about good games because that shit just won’t stick. When it comes to SC and CI that shit does stick.
“A” refund, from “one” redditor who has provided no proof. On a subreddit that’s been known to brigade. I’m not saying CIG is a saint, but I feel like a rag piece and the outrage need to hold off for more info.
Seeing is believing and it would sway myself and many more. Until then, it is just another article written based on an unsubstantiated reddit post. And I’ve seen enough Reddit posts be bullshit to need to see that NDA before believing.
What’s your reason for asking? I’m assuming because you linked a rag piece and not the original reddit thread for context?
I’d need to see at least two different people with the same claim submit redacted copies. One of which should not have any history on the refunds reddit. One motivated person could forge an NDA, and again, I wouldn’t put it past that community to hallucinate yet another slight.
I am just curious how you know this? The SC reddit sub is huge compared to the refunds sub.
Just seems strange to claim to be so focused on “proof”, while seemingly making your own claims without any data. Shouldn’t there be a common standard?
Right, because the refundians are a loose collective, and CIG is a company. You can’t point at a singular post and go “there’s the brigading,” mostly because they get removed by mods, but hate groups brigade. But to cite a source, the Derek Smart “90 day cash flow” claim is a good place to start.
CIG has plenty of things to rightfully criticize, but this isn’t one of them until multiple people from multiple sources come forward. It’s sensationalist bullshit until proven otherwise.
Who said anything about CIG the company. I was referring to the size of the SC subreddit vs the refunds subreddit; specifically (420K vs ~25K). How would this brigading even work? What mostly gets removed by mods? Negative threads about SC or alleged brigaded votes? There are tons of critical threads about SC in various subreddits, so they don’t get removed.
Don’t see what Derek Smart has to do with star citizen as of now. His twitter is focused on crypto and “web 3.0 gaming”, why is this relevant.
That being said, you can find a subreddit that was run by star citizen fans about Derek Smart. Seems like it was archived due to constant rule violations.
Do you actually have any evidence or this just something you feel is right?
More info on this issue would definitely be interesting. But to be perfectly honest, I don’t believe star citizen fans are interested in any good faith discussion on this topics.
This is a luxury brand staple: it engenders loyalty because it makes the whales “better”.
You can’t buy certain luxury bags or watches or cars or whatever unless you have spent a giant pile of money on crap you may or may not want as the price of being allowed the special sales.
They aren’t half as shady as every other AAA gaming company. These things are blown way out proportion and CIG is held to double standards. They have crunch time and NDAs for disgruntled assholes? Oh no, the world is over, this company is pure evil like none other! It’s really not a big deal that this one refund has an NDA. Their others don’t, so it’s a weird thing, but to say this is proof of wrongdoing is fallacious grasping. To believe what Massively has to say about Star Citizen is like listening to what fox News has to say about Climate Change. Every little thing they can spin into making cig look bad they take, even things every other company does without issue. Hating SC gets way more engagement and ad revenue then almost any other kind of critical article in gaming. Just look at any post about SC on this community compared to others. It’s insane. And I don’t use that term lightly.
Do you have any source for that claim regarding MOP and The Escapist? Just bringing up that quote isn’t a magical “I am right” button.
I tried their free trials 4 times. Twice I encountered game breaking bugs (required a restart and switching servers respectively).
Let’s ignore that for now. I will start with the good things. The planet to space transition was pretty cool, not going to lie. The cities were also detailed and looked nice (the first time you take the train in one of the cities, it does contribute to the world building). That being said, both the planets and the POI have nothing to offer in terms of actual gameplay structure. The cities might as well be a menu based system for purchases/interactions. The planets just have some random uninspired mission locations that all feel the same. You might as well have a separate map that you enter via cutscene.
But the biggest issue was the horrible gameplay. It’s one of the reasons I believe star citizen is a scam.
I will use a small trading indie game called Merchant of the Skies as a comparison point. It was developed by a husband and wife duo in less than 12 months. The game has:
Dynamic world impacted by trading activities. City taxation/reputation, new resources, new locations, new ships and upgrades all open up as you complete various trading missions.
Bazaar system. There are several location on a map that have weekly bazaars. Certain days have peak visitors while others are off days. You have to time your arrivals/trading.
Supply and demand system in bazaar sales. You over/under price your goods depending on how much of your ship’s inventory you want to sell. This is also tied to the weekly visitors intensity system.
Refueling system. Locations on the edge of the map have refuelling station that are few and far between. There is a simple RNG system for bonus fuel during travels.
Mail/passenger travel side missions. You can occasionally help travellers and deliver mail. It’s fun to align this with your trading activities.
Different late-game ships that you can pick depending on your play-style (it’s not only about cargo capacity, it does actually have a relatively big impact on how you go about the game).
This is just the gameplay that is relevant for comparison. There is also in-depth base-building, complex trade fleets and delivery scheduling, a simple RPG system, a simple ship employee system, a simple bank system, a resource gathering system, rudimentary exploration (map is randomized on each run), a mainline story and a bunch of different side missions.
Now compare that to star citizen. No supply/demand. No world impact. No economy. There is nothing to do except get more money to get ships. Sure you play with other players, but is there any kind of competition in terms of trading? They don’t even have a functional escort system where you can hire NPC ships for defence against griefers.
And crude gameplay is not limited to trade. FPS combat with single digit ticks? Exploration with one fully explored system? I will add that they sell non-functional “exploration ships” for hundreds of dollars; some of them are literal JPEGs. There is a bunch of other stuff that they’ve marketed but have simply not implemented or completely abandoned after the initial cash shop sales campaign (data running, journalism spaceships, refuelling spaceships, passenger transport spaceships, medical spaceships, farming spaceships, flying bazaar spaceship, mine laying spaceship, the list just goes on and on).
And this is after ~12 years and allegedly ~$750 million spent on development.
I will speculate a lot of that money goes to the founder’s family, key insiders and friends and they knowingly lie about their capabilities, intentions and just make shit up to sell JPEGs.
You don’t have to agree with the last point, but am I wrong with respect to trading/hauling in SC?
“People give them money for a game” as a business model seems to be applied evenly for everyone else except CIG and Star Citizen. They were given money by fans to make a game. It currently is playable and is in active development. You put up an example where the game has similar systems but radically different gameplay. Star Citizen has gameplay, it is a fun activity to play with friends and it has a thriving ecosystem (despite your clearly untrue claim otherwise). You don’t play it, only know about it in the abstract, and don’t seem to understand game development.
Hating Star Citizen feels less like genuine criticism and more like angry people grasping at a meme.
Why you hate this game is a mystery. It hasn’t done anything to you and is working to fulfill the promises it made. But you are acting like a 3 year old child who wants it immediately and fuck the waiting.
What exactly did they release in terms of trading/hauling gameplay? Can you be specific?
If anything the post suggests whatever they did release is still pretty crude (as one can assume based on the feedback given in the thread - this is basic stuff).
In context of a multiplayer game, you would want some sort of dynamism and player interaction. Something along the lines of “planet X is building Y, requiring delivery of Z within the next 2 IRL months.”
Successful completion of this mission would result in % discount on trade NPC escorts (which don’t exist in SC) or additional NPC security on major trade routes. Pirate players and NPCs pirates would need to try and stop traders/haulers from successful completing the mission within 2 months. You know, real gameplay for traders and other “classes” with an impact on the game.
I am a 3 year old because I think trading/hauling gameplay in SC is complete shit after 12 years and raises questions about the where the money is going? Come on…
I don’t hate the game. Hate is reserved for serious things. I do think it is a scam and outlined why. It’s a reasonable assumption considering the history of SC.
Something along the lines of “planet X is building Y, requiring delivery of Z within the next 2 IRL months.”
I have literally never seen that in a game. Every single MMO out there abstracts it’s economy unless it’s a specific world event requiring x number of deliveries by players to trigger. Stop holding SC to unrealistic standards.
These sort of mission/events are extremely common in MMOs, I believe there are examples from 20+ years ago. You yourself admit that they exist.
I am saying that trading/hauling gameplay in SC is comically primitive (while selling ships in the cash shop, some in the form of JPEGs, for hundreds of dollars). If you try out SC’s trading gameplay, it is not unreasonable to wonder where the money is going.
“Wow, this half developed feature is so interesting, here’s a list of improvements that should be made to make it fun!” are 3/4s of the comments on that thread.
‘Proud’ owner of a 300i, still waiting on that ‘Rework’ from 20142018 ???.
No, just no. You compared it to a very simple game that can run all of that from a single back end. I created a similarly simple economic simulation in an Excel sheet from a single supply/demand curve in college, in a weekend.
And then you go on to knock them for not being feature complete when they tell you that themselves. They absolutely are still developing, they’re releasing the second system in the next big patch.
Nobody is going to argue with you that it’s had issues. But at least give it a fair comparison. That’s what’s got people upset.
I left out features of Merchant of the Skies that are not relevant for a comparison.
The fact is that after 12 years and ~$750M allegedly spent on development, the trading/hauling gameplay is more crude than a indie game developed by two people.
That they are “still developing” is irrelevant. It is not unreasonable to question where the money is going considering how crude the gameplay is (if it even exists as we can see from the journalism spaceship JPEG).
Because they’ve got about a million things to do. So yeah, it’s pretty basic gameplay right now. Nobody is denying that. But to reduce multiple engine switches, court enforced stop work orders, and assets in production to “they spent everything over a decade and all they have is a jpeg”, is just ridiculous.
Star Citizen is a game that exists, so sure, maybe “scam” isn’t the right word for it, but they’re still insanely sketchy. They constantly make promises they never meet, constantly beg the community for more funding when they already have an outrageous amount of funding, add insanely overpriced microtransactions to try to profit off whales, etc…
SC is driven by hype and nothing else. So many years later it still runs like ass and is very barebones, there’s a giant question mark on where all that money went and how the project is being handled. No Man’s Sky had a fraction of the budget and size and they managed to do so much more.
At best it’s the worst managed video game project of all time.
Ten years on and you think their growing players count and revenue is still just hype? No. The people who try the game are sticking around. If it was just hype it would have died years ago. It is genuinely fun to play right now. I can tell you this because I’m having lots of fun in it right now. When is the last time you played it?
Where does any game spend it’s money? That’s not ever public info. The fact that SC is publicly posting its revenue is opening them up to this double standard they are better than other companies with. We know they just bought a massive new building to hire more devs, so the evidence suggests they spend their money on development. They don’t spend any of it on dividends for any already rich ultracalitalist investors because they don’t have any, so they already have every other AAA company beat. (Those investors also invest in gaming journalism).
They do have investors. And at any rate, it makes no difference if the money is instead going to the founders family members. He hired his unqualified spouse (openly admitted to not know what SEO was and how metrics worked) for a senior position and they changed her surname and told employees to not reveal that they were married.
He turned into a snake and convinced Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge, he dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, and he is the real developer of Spore. His wife is actually a Hitler clone. CIG funded 9/11.
I have played it and it spends the entire time trying to make me buy virtual ships for real money. And this isn’t microtransactions either, this is substantial quantities of cash.
If it was just a bit of a cash grab but it was otherwise an okay game I guess it would be acceptable. But there’s nothing to the game, all you do is you fly around in your basic ship because you refuse to buy a good one, and shoot pirates. It doesn’t do anything that you can’t do in Elite Dangerous or No Man’s Sky.
every new thing i learn about Star Citizen is like far sketchier than the last thing I learned about it.
Always remember “The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.”
There’s a lot of bullshit in the Star Citizen controversy. Hating it generates a lot of revenue for Massively and The Escapist (two of the worst tabloids in the industry). Just play it once during a free fly before you judge. If everyone did that, these articles wouldn’t exist.
And how exactly does a free fly invalidate the article about refunds requiring an NDA? Nobody is questioning whether there’s is some semblance of a game in a project that has been in development for over a decade, it would be a massive red flag if there’s wasn’t. What people are questioning is why is there a secret shop page that players can access ONLY after they’ve spent a thousand dollars on the game, and then another secret shop page after they’ve spent 10k? What’s up with the predatory practices?
Is your response “No no no, don’t look at those controversies. Look at how pretty the game is”? A free fly event doesn’t invalidate the claim that you might need to sign an NDA to get a refund. It doesn’t invalidate the claim that the devs had to pull 7 day work weeks. There are loads of criticism that the free fly does not address at all. These articles would exist even if everyone tried the free fly.
From my experience games that get “hate articles” are games that are already doing questionable things. You don’t get such articles circulating about good games because that shit just won’t stick. When it comes to SC and CI that shit does stick.
“A” refund, from “one” redditor who has provided no proof. On a subreddit that’s been known to brigade. I’m not saying CIG is a saint, but I feel like a rag piece and the outrage need to hold off for more info.
How do you know this? There is a reason why I am asking.
And would you be willing to change your opinion if a redacted copy of the NDA was published?
Seeing is believing and it would sway myself and many more. Until then, it is just another article written based on an unsubstantiated reddit post. And I’ve seen enough Reddit posts be bullshit to need to see that NDA before believing.
What’s your reason for asking? I’m assuming because you linked a rag piece and not the original reddit thread for context?
I’d need to see at least two different people with the same claim submit redacted copies. One of which should not have any history on the refunds reddit. One motivated person could forge an NDA, and again, I wouldn’t put it past that community to hallucinate yet another slight.
I am just curious how you know this? The SC reddit sub is huge compared to the refunds sub.
Just seems strange to claim to be so focused on “proof”, while seemingly making your own claims without any data. Shouldn’t there be a common standard?
Right, because the refundians are a loose collective, and CIG is a company. You can’t point at a singular post and go “there’s the brigading,” mostly because they get removed by mods, but hate groups brigade. But to cite a source, the Derek Smart “90 day cash flow” claim is a good place to start.
CIG has plenty of things to rightfully criticize, but this isn’t one of them until multiple people from multiple sources come forward. It’s sensationalist bullshit until proven otherwise.
Who said anything about CIG the company. I was referring to the size of the SC subreddit vs the refunds subreddit; specifically (420K vs ~25K). How would this brigading even work? What mostly gets removed by mods? Negative threads about SC or alleged brigaded votes? There are tons of critical threads about SC in various subreddits, so they don’t get removed.
Don’t see what Derek Smart has to do with star citizen as of now. His twitter is focused on crypto and “web 3.0 gaming”, why is this relevant.
That being said, you can find a subreddit that was run by star citizen fans about Derek Smart. Seems like it was archived due to constant rule violations.
Do you actually have any evidence or this just something you feel is right?
More info on this issue would definitely be interesting. But to be perfectly honest, I don’t believe star citizen fans are interested in any good faith discussion on this topics.
This is a luxury brand staple: it engenders loyalty because it makes the whales “better”.
You can’t buy certain luxury bags or watches or cars or whatever unless you have spent a giant pile of money on crap you may or may not want as the price of being allowed the special sales.
Same thing.
They aren’t half as shady as every other AAA gaming company. These things are blown way out proportion and CIG is held to double standards. They have crunch time and NDAs for disgruntled assholes? Oh no, the world is over, this company is pure evil like none other! It’s really not a big deal that this one refund has an NDA. Their others don’t, so it’s a weird thing, but to say this is proof of wrongdoing is fallacious grasping. To believe what Massively has to say about Star Citizen is like listening to what fox News has to say about Climate Change. Every little thing they can spin into making cig look bad they take, even things every other company does without issue. Hating SC gets way more engagement and ad revenue then almost any other kind of critical article in gaming. Just look at any post about SC on this community compared to others. It’s insane. And I don’t use that term lightly.
Narrator: yet he did, just now.
I’ve played it several times during those.
It’s never improved. It’s a piece of shit game designed to take money from morons.
Defending it isn’t going to make your loss of money any less painful.
Do you have any source for that claim regarding MOP and The Escapist? Just bringing up that quote isn’t a magical “I am right” button.
I tried their free trials 4 times. Twice I encountered game breaking bugs (required a restart and switching servers respectively).
Let’s ignore that for now. I will start with the good things. The planet to space transition was pretty cool, not going to lie. The cities were also detailed and looked nice (the first time you take the train in one of the cities, it does contribute to the world building). That being said, both the planets and the POI have nothing to offer in terms of actual gameplay structure. The cities might as well be a menu based system for purchases/interactions. The planets just have some random uninspired mission locations that all feel the same. You might as well have a separate map that you enter via cutscene.
But the biggest issue was the horrible gameplay. It’s one of the reasons I believe star citizen is a scam.
I will use a small trading indie game called Merchant of the Skies as a comparison point. It was developed by a husband and wife duo in less than 12 months. The game has:
This is just the gameplay that is relevant for comparison. There is also in-depth base-building, complex trade fleets and delivery scheduling, a simple RPG system, a simple ship employee system, a simple bank system, a resource gathering system, rudimentary exploration (map is randomized on each run), a mainline story and a bunch of different side missions.
Now compare that to star citizen. No supply/demand. No world impact. No economy. There is nothing to do except get more money to get ships. Sure you play with other players, but is there any kind of competition in terms of trading? They don’t even have a functional escort system where you can hire NPC ships for defence against griefers.
And crude gameplay is not limited to trade. FPS combat with single digit ticks? Exploration with one fully explored system? I will add that they sell non-functional “exploration ships” for hundreds of dollars; some of them are literal JPEGs. There is a bunch of other stuff that they’ve marketed but have simply not implemented or completely abandoned after the initial cash shop sales campaign (data running, journalism spaceships, refuelling spaceships, passenger transport spaceships, medical spaceships, farming spaceships, flying bazaar spaceship, mine laying spaceship, the list just goes on and on).
And this is after ~12 years and allegedly ~$750 million spent on development.
I will speculate a lot of that money goes to the founder’s family, key insiders and friends and they knowingly lie about their capabilities, intentions and just make shit up to sell JPEGs.
You don’t have to agree with the last point, but am I wrong with respect to trading/hauling in SC?
“People give them money for a game” as a business model seems to be applied evenly for everyone else except CIG and Star Citizen. They were given money by fans to make a game. It currently is playable and is in active development. You put up an example where the game has similar systems but radically different gameplay. Star Citizen has gameplay, it is a fun activity to play with friends and it has a thriving ecosystem (despite your clearly untrue claim otherwise). You don’t play it, only know about it in the abstract, and don’t seem to understand game development.
Hating Star Citizen feels less like genuine criticism and more like angry people grasping at a meme.
So what gameplay is there for trading/hauling?
Two months ago they released it: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/1eo7m5w/the_new_hauling_missions_are_a_ton_of_fun_but/
Why you hate this game is a mystery. It hasn’t done anything to you and is working to fulfill the promises it made. But you are acting like a 3 year old child who wants it immediately and fuck the waiting.
What exactly did they release in terms of trading/hauling gameplay? Can you be specific?
If anything the post suggests whatever they did release is still pretty crude (as one can assume based on the feedback given in the thread - this is basic stuff).
In context of a multiplayer game, you would want some sort of dynamism and player interaction. Something along the lines of “planet X is building Y, requiring delivery of Z within the next 2 IRL months.”
Successful completion of this mission would result in % discount on trade NPC escorts (which don’t exist in SC) or additional NPC security on major trade routes. Pirate players and NPCs pirates would need to try and stop traders/haulers from successful completing the mission within 2 months. You know, real gameplay for traders and other “classes” with an impact on the game.
I am a 3 year old because I think trading/hauling gameplay in SC is complete shit after 12 years and raises questions about the where the money is going? Come on…
I don’t hate the game. Hate is reserved for serious things. I do think it is a scam and outlined why. It’s a reasonable assumption considering the history of SC.
I have literally never seen that in a game. Every single MMO out there abstracts it’s economy unless it’s a specific world event requiring x number of deliveries by players to trigger. Stop holding SC to unrealistic standards.
These sort of mission/events are extremely common in MMOs, I believe there are examples from 20+ years ago. You yourself admit that they exist.
I am saying that trading/hauling gameplay in SC is comically primitive (while selling ships in the cash shop, some in the form of JPEGs, for hundreds of dollars). If you try out SC’s trading gameplay, it is not unreasonable to wonder where the money is going.
“Wow, this half developed feature is so interesting, here’s a list of improvements that should be made to make it fun!” are 3/4s of the comments on that thread.
‘Proud’ owner of a 300i, still waiting on that ‘Rework’ from
20142018???.No, just no. You compared it to a very simple game that can run all of that from a single back end. I created a similarly simple economic simulation in an Excel sheet from a single supply/demand curve in college, in a weekend.
And then you go on to knock them for not being feature complete when they tell you that themselves. They absolutely are still developing, they’re releasing the second system in the next big patch.
Nobody is going to argue with you that it’s had issues. But at least give it a fair comparison. That’s what’s got people upset.
I left out features of Merchant of the Skies that are not relevant for a comparison.
The fact is that after 12 years and ~$750M allegedly spent on development, the trading/hauling gameplay is more crude than a indie game developed by two people.
That they are “still developing” is irrelevant. It is not unreasonable to question where the money is going considering how crude the gameplay is (if it even exists as we can see from the journalism spaceship JPEG).
Because they’ve got about a million things to do. So yeah, it’s pretty basic gameplay right now. Nobody is denying that. But to reduce multiple engine switches, court enforced stop work orders, and assets in production to “they spent everything over a decade and all they have is a jpeg”, is just ridiculous.
Citation needed.
Star Citizen is a game that exists, so sure, maybe “scam” isn’t the right word for it, but they’re still insanely sketchy. They constantly make promises they never meet, constantly beg the community for more funding when they already have an outrageous amount of funding, add insanely overpriced microtransactions to try to profit off whales, etc…
SC is driven by hype and nothing else. So many years later it still runs like ass and is very barebones, there’s a giant question mark on where all that money went and how the project is being handled. No Man’s Sky had a fraction of the budget and size and they managed to do so much more.
At best it’s the worst managed video game project of all time.
Ten years on and you think their growing players count and revenue is still just hype? No. The people who try the game are sticking around. If it was just hype it would have died years ago. It is genuinely fun to play right now. I can tell you this because I’m having lots of fun in it right now. When is the last time you played it?
Where does any game spend it’s money? That’s not ever public info. The fact that SC is publicly posting its revenue is opening them up to this double standard they are better than other companies with. We know they just bought a massive new building to hire more devs, so the evidence suggests they spend their money on development. They don’t spend any of it on dividends for any already rich ultracalitalist investors because they don’t have any, so they already have every other AAA company beat. (Those investors also invest in gaming journalism).
They do have investors. And at any rate, it makes no difference if the money is instead going to the founders family members. He hired his unqualified spouse (openly admitted to not know what SEO was and how metrics worked) for a senior position and they changed her surname and told employees to not reveal that they were married.
He turned into a snake and convinced Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge, he dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, and he is the real developer of Spore. His wife is actually a Hitler clone. CIG funded 9/11.
Your reply is why people call star citizen a cult.
Passionately enjoying something is far less cringey than passionately hating a videogame this much.
So you’re okay with developer salary $ going towards his incompetent wife that they told employees to lie about?
I was going to side with you, but then I visited their webpage. 12 necessary cookies? This company is scummy.
I have played it and it spends the entire time trying to make me buy virtual ships for real money. And this isn’t microtransactions either, this is substantial quantities of cash.
If it was just a bit of a cash grab but it was otherwise an okay game I guess it would be acceptable. But there’s nothing to the game, all you do is you fly around in your basic ship because you refuse to buy a good one, and shoot pirates. It doesn’t do anything that you can’t do in Elite Dangerous or No Man’s Sky.