• deaf_fish@lemm.ee
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    6 months ago

    And if you always vote for them no matter what they do, then they don’t have to think or care about you anymore, because they know you’ll vote for them regardless.

    You got it! That is the shit system in the US.

    Oh thank you, I actually am a foreign spy. Do you think you could rate me 5 stars? I really need this job.

    Lol, good sense of humor.

    I sympathize, it gets depressing. That is why, I don’t blame anyone from no voting or 3rd party voting. I just wish people would do that without justifying it. Not make it out to be this big brained strategy. There are a lot of good meaning ignorant people who will read that stuff and think they are materially improving things by no voting or 3rd party voting. The progressive fight is super hard and a pain in the butt. If you need a rest King/Queen, take it.

    The only real way to get change to happen is getting enough people educated and organized to turn the democrat or republican candidate into a 3rd party candidate by numbers, that is the only way they suffer. Until then we have to play their stupid game.

    • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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      6 months ago

      The only real way to get change to happen is getting enough people educated and organized to turn the democrat or republican candidate into a 3rd party candidate by numbers, that is the only way they suffer.

      And how exactly do you envision that happening without anyone ever making the case for it or trying to justify that position?

      • deaf_fish@lemm.ee
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        6 months ago

        What do you mean? A lot of people are doing that. It’s not like we get one progressive action every 4 years. Why do you think people organize and run for local government? Why do you think I am trying to spread leftist ideas on the internet? Even people who run as a 3rd party candidate are helping by spreading ideas. Bernie didn’t make it to the finish line, but in trying he did a lot of good work spreading ideas and making people think.

        If we wake up enough people, the gears in the machine will start turning and we won’t need to vote 3rd party because we won’t be 3rd party by definition anymore.

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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          6 months ago

          I guess I just don’t understand how to square that position with:

          I just wish people would do that without justifying it.

          • deaf_fish@lemm.ee
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            6 months ago

            I mean voting 3rd part or no-voting. If you want to do that, it is your right. The outcome of doing that is going against your interests. So, you don’t really have a political strategy argument for doing it.

            I have found a few people that just didn’t want to feel bad about voting 3rd party. And that is fine, you don’t have feel bad. You can vote how you want. But they felt like they need to create a reason for why they are voting 3rd party or no voting. This is what I think is harming the community. Creating the reason or justifying it when there was no rationality backing it and spreading it like it is a good reason is what irks me. It’s spreading misinformation.

            • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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              6 months ago

              Even people who run as a 3rd party candidate are helping by spreading ideas.

              So, you don’t really have a political strategy argument for doing it.

              I’m so confused by your position.

              • deaf_fish@lemm.ee
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                6 months ago

                Ok, I think I understand the confusion. Running for a 3rd party and voting 3rd party are two different things.

                I think that running for a 3rd party has good outcomes, it generates news and discussion and gets your ideas out in front of a lot of people. Maybe, when the time is right, you won’t be a 3rd party anymore and become one of the mainstream parties.

                I think that voting for a 3rd party has bad outcomes. As our previous discussions, thanks to the dumb first past the post. Only the two most popular candidates matter. So you should vote for the lesser evil even if they suck (and they will).

                When a 3rd party candidate becomes popular enough they edge out one of the standard party candidates and the voting strategy changes in our favor.

                • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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                  6 months ago

                  But that doesn’t make any sense. Running as a third party candidate means doing a political project in which you’re trying to attract supporters to vote for you. If that political project is good, then it’s good to vote for, if it’s bad, then it’s bad to start it in the first place.

                  If no one voted for a third party, that party would lose relevance and wouldn’t be able to accomplish the goal of spreading ideas like you mentioned earlier.

                  Also, you suggest that once a sort of critical mass of voters prefer a third party candidate, the voting strategy changes and they should vote third party. But it doesn’t work that way. How can we tell when we’ve reached that point, if everyone follows your advice and votes for the less-bad major party? By all appearances, it would seem that the third party has no meaningful support, even if the majority supported it, because they’re voting for who they expect to win rather than who they most prefer. For all we know, that could be the situation right now. People can’t just all spontaneously decide together to switch, unless you have some means of coordinating it. Enough people have to switch for it to start to seem plausible that it could actually work, and that means those first people would have to act contrary to your rationale.

                  • deaf_fish@lemm.ee
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                    6 months ago

                    Running as a third party candidate means doing a political project in which you’re trying to attract supporters to vote for you.

                    This has always been a stretch goal of any 3rd party candidate, because it almost never ever happens. You run 3rd party to tank the votes of one of the primary candidates, for a book deal, or to spread information and awareness.

                    If no one voted for a third party, that party would lose relevance and wouldn’t be able to accomplish the goal of spreading ideas like you mentioned earlier.

                    The strategy is to gracefully step down after you have spread information and before any of the voting happens. You can support a 3rd party candidate and plan to not vote for them unless they get popular.

                    How can we tell when we’ve reached that point

                    We won’t be able to tell the instant it happens, because it’s impossible to track all the voters, but signs will start showing up.

                    You know we are past the point when the democrat or republican candidate starts getting ignored like 3rd party candidates currently do. Remember how Bernie’s run looked? Before the Dems did an op and kicked him out, it was looking very interesting.

                    For all we know, that could be the situation right now.

                    Maybe, keep your eye on the polls. If your 3rd party candidate has comparable polling to Biden or Trump then we can start talking about the possibility of that happening. We have to overcome the normies.

                    By all appearances, it would seem that the third party has no meaningful support, even if the majority supported it,

                    Disagree, like I said, you can support a 3rd party candidate without planning on voting for them. Everyone knows you have to eat shit on voting day, but before then, you can point out all the good things about a particular candidate, even if you know they are not going to win.

                    People can’t just all spontaneously decide together to switch, unless you have some means of coordinating it.

                    Yes, this is why it may happen an election or two after we get critical mass. It’s a limitation of the tools we have.

                    Remember if the 3rd party candidate has the support, they are no longer a 3rd party. People can say they are 3rd party, but they would be wrong or coping.