I’m an ex incel myself, but I’ve been seeing a few users here exhibiting the tell tale signs. “I’m not attractive enough”, “I don’t socialize correctly”, “I’ll never find a woman” - all extremely unhealthy attitudes.
Personally I burned through many friendships and ruined a lot of chances with women because I was in the incel community. The community warped my view of women so much that I made it even harder to meet women, I became my own worst enemy. I lost friends because all I could think of was how horrible it was that they had girlfriends.
I have a friend who helped me out of it. She was the one who started calling out my bad behavior for what it was, and I started on the long uphill path out of it. I’m now married and stable for well over a decade, but I still think back to those days, and it depresses me seeing other people causing this themselves and not being aware of it.
So, Lemmy, for those who have clawed out of it, what’s your story?
I don’t know if I’d have considered myself an incel, but there’s definite cringe behavior in my past that would at least fall under incel behavior.
Thinking about it now, I was just too focused on being what I thought would make me attractive to someone, mostly based on listening to other guys or media, and not actually getting to know the people I wanted to date and finding out what they wanted.
I saw the people I liked more as a goal to reach in some gamified system, rather than as just another person who wanted to meet someone nice. Just not a lot of empathy going on. You can’t just grind to an ideal character build and have some formula say, ok you’ve met the requirements, here is your achievement trophy.
I’ll assume you want an actual partner, and not just a fling, so it’s going to be platonic one on one time that’s going to get you closer to your goals. The “friend zone” is not a trap. The “friend zone” is a power up. You’re spending time with someone you like. That’s a win. Even if you aren’t dating them, you’ve managed to find someone who wants to spend time with you and get to know you. It’s getting you interacting better with other people and hopefully understanding and accommodating them better, not you just being self centered. It’s making you a more interesting and rounded person. That guy is the real thing the right person will eventually want to date.
You trying to date that particular person probably wouldn’t work out, and being their friend is still a positive thing to your life. It’s someone to commiserate with, to get to know your actions around a girl you can have mutual respect for, to learn what girls you like really care about and want to see in a relationship. She doesn’t owe you love for you time. You owe her respect for her time, and she will give that back to you. It’s the same as a guy friend. It’s another member for your party. That’s a strength, not a loss.
Spend time with women without there being an ulterior motive, and you will learn a lot. For me, I liked strong willed, assertive women, and well… that lead me to get to know a lot of women that had no interest in men in that way, so it eliminated the whole dating part of the equation, and that took a lot of the pressure off there for trying to “win them over” in that regard, and to just learn women are people just like me, with the some wants, needs, confusion about dating, and all that.
I ended up also finally talking to my doctor about depression, and that was the life altering experience that really made everything fall into place. My shit behavior, past and present at the time, was all my fault, but it turns out I had some things really stacked against me with my ability to cope and develop emotionally, that once I got that fixed, was a huge burden lifted from me.
Once that was dealt with, I was in a whole new world and all relationships became much easier to understand. Guys and girls became all of a sudden much more relatable and understandable, and I was able to process other people’s wants and needs instead of just my own, and it had taken too much of my resources just to make myself a barely functional person.
I became able to learn empathy and that helped me become someone people were interested in knowing and loving, in friendship or in dating. It helps build and maintain good relationships. I can better know what I want, and how to better understand someone else’s wants.
I feel the incel/nice guy behavior is largely just people with underlying emotional issues they haven’t figured out. You’ve got to realize other people won’t complete you or can’t be that missing piece. That’s something you’ve got to figure out first. If that’s getting meds to give you an even playing field, going to therapy, are just having someone you’re accountable to to fix your shit behavior, ego, or selfishness, do what it takes to address it. Everything else is you making excuses, and until you fix that roadblock in yourself to building those deeper relationships, you’re never going to have success.
I look back, and regret so much of my life now, but what’s done is done, and I can at least know I never want to act anywhere near that cringe again! But I can recognize it now, and stop it dead. I too just try to share my story when asked, and I hope to help save them some of that embarrassment and regret.
Thank you for opening up, I feel like your story (while I know is very personal to you), is one of many that many men feel, but are too nervous to confront. I think you hit the nail on the head. A relationship in the moment feels like the thing you need, but what you’re actually needing is to feel content with yourself first. Once you work on yourself everything else falls into place.
But you have to want to want that change, the world won’t do it for you
Much like anything else, having that strong foundation of physical, emotional, and spiritual health within yourself is going to make adding outside relationships much easier.
It’s not like you have to be anywhere near perfect; you just needs to know your strengths and limitations. Having a personal handicap in common with someone can be a bond, or having complementary quirks can sometimes strengthen things for both of you if you are healthy about it. Like someone that knows they spend too much but has poor impulse control and someone that is too restrictive and needs some to say it’s ok to reward yourself occasionally.
We all just want happiness, and we think getting a girl, a fancy house/car, a pet, a child, whatever it is will fill that hole inside. But the problem is within, and that is where the solution needs to come from.
When you rely on someone outside to complete you, you end up being that person that’s drowning, and your struggle ends up taking your would-be rescuer down with you instead. Other people don’t deserve suffering to try to fix you. Some may try, but that is seldom very successful, and you’ll often just hurt those you care about. I’ve lost many friends and girlfriends that way.
I think it’s important to talk about these things, especially with other men. I grew up around selfish parents and never got to spend much time with people my own age, learning how to interact, and looking out only for me was a survival instinct. I felt it was weak to rely on others, to get help, to feel sad, etc. It was all really self destructive things, and I still have to fight constantly with myself trying to break free of it and enjoy my life. It makes it therapeutic to talk about it whenever it comes up, because it shows me in a good way my situation wasn’t unique and others are in the same position. We can help each other get through it, and I’m not the type to pull the ladder up behind me and leave you to your own fate.
As I said, I will never shake all the shitty things inside to people I cared about, and I can’t fix most of those broken bonds of trust, but I can talk myself through my emotional scars with you all, and hopefully help you do less damage to yourselves. Trying to prevent some of this from repeating to someone else is about the only way to make up to myself for things I’ve done.
But isn’t the most effective way to prevent others from being harmed due to your own issues to simply isolate yourself from people who would potentially care? You cannot harm anyone but yourself if there is no one to see you struggling and trying to help.
None of your friends could possibly be hurt if you had zero friends.
I’ve gone through periods of time like that, but I don’t feel it’s necessarily the healthiest way to go. If you want to be isolated and dwell in depression, that’s absolutely a choice. I always felt better though spending time with either my brother or my one lifelong friend when things got that bad. I don’t think humans are meant to be totally alone for long.
Additionally, if you’re looking to improve your situation, being alone where it was just me and my self-destructive thoughts wasn’t the most productive environment. Ideally, you would be continuing to learn to be better around those people. Keeping isolated is just going to keep you comfortable alienating people.