God, I hear that…plus I usually need to meet with my coworkers in India, so I’m often needing to start meetings at 6 AM. I am nooooot functional that early
I usually had to do that for Europe. Most Indian coworkers I have worked with work a later schedule so there has always been a bit of overlap. Generally the Europeans I have worked with have been German and they generally have a labor rep on the board so they can fight against messed up work schedules.
Ha! Yes.
For the first time, we are trying out a full scrum team in our company, with an external “scrum master” who really seems to know what he’s doing. It’s bloody amazing. Small team, the daily meeting has yet to exceed 10 minutes and is usually <5 minutes, the planning and refinement meeting keeps everyone in the loop. The rest of the time I can just be a happy code monkey :)
My stand-ups are at 10 am (11 am for most of the team), last between 3 and 15 minutes depending on how many of the 7 of us show up and how much everyone has to say, then we all go back to what we’re doing. My project manager and boss both care about the work that gets done rather than monitoring us to make sure we’re working the entire time, and we actually get reasonable (even generous) timelines for most things unless it’s something super important.
I’m the same way. If I could start work at 5:00 a.m. and be off by noon or 1:00 p.m. I’d be happy. It’s just hard to find people who want to do therapy at 5:00 a.m. 😂
You know, actually I’m in Oregon, so I hadn’t thought about the fact that if I did telehealth with people who lived across the country I might be able to start at 5:00.
I’d love it if therapy hours were before and after normal work hours. On Betterhelp they are, but I gave up on it after a couple tries when I couldn’t find a good fit.
I’m allowed to set my own hours, so if it was telehealth I could theoretically do late night or morning appointments if I want to. I just haven’t really thought about that. When I eventually have my own practice. I really do want to have weekend hours and evening hours, before I worked with a lot of parents and that was one of the biggest issues was when do you have time for therapy when you’re chasing a toddler. Or like I remember when I would have friends who worked as bartenders, they wished that they could do therapy after they got off work but sometimes that would be two or three in the morning.
This would be a massive waste of time if it were with the whole team every day. I don’t need to know what every other employee on the team is doing every single day, and I don’t need to spend time listening to them explain it. I’ve got shit to do.
My husband holds his team meetings at 3/4pm ish on friday on zoom with beers. Afterwards he tells everyone to fuck off home.
THAT is how you do it. It turns into a pile of geeks talking geek and part post-mortem, part decompressing from the week and they’ve actually had some absolutely mint ideas rising out of deformalising the dev pileup.
We used to have a rigorous schedule.
Arrive at the office between 8-830. Make coffee and chat. At 9am we started the daily meeting. We all read what we were going to do today to each other. By then it was 1130 and so we broke for lunch. After lunch, at 1300 we would do the thing we said we would do. At 1530-1630 we would submit out updates to the project management system and produce tomorrow’s report for us to read to each other. 1700 we would go to the bar then head home around 1830.
When I started working for myself I would usually start around 9 to finish at noon, including travel time.
It wouldn’t be explaining it. It would be your teammates telling everyone where they are on the projects you all work on. If you aren’t working the same projects, then you aren’t on the same team. Or you need sub-teams. If your work is so independent you don’t rely on anyone else’s work and vice versa, then you probably don’t need standups.
I agree with you. That’s why we make our teams small enough in size that standups are 10min max, usually more like 5.
That said, it can be really beneficial to hear that Joe is working on something similar to a thing I’m going to start today. He may be able to give me some lessons learned or point me to a library.
But I completely agree that big teams a make this an annoyance. I used to be on a 20 person team and standups were completely worthless.
Now, we have 3-5 devs per team and it’s usually really quick.
eh. i think best practice is smallish teams get everyone together once a week for the stand up. but a supe or somebody makes the rounds daily. five minute check up ‘do you need anything? get you some coffee?’, kind of conversation before going to the next.
it doesn’t impact the team if that one person wants to chat, but also gives people an opportunity to bring up concerns they wouldn’t normally bring up in a group.
largish teams need to be broken into smallish teams.
Do you mean standups where you are actually standing up? Many places I’ve worked have called a daily meeting a “stand-up” but it has been an hour-long sit-down meeting.
Then there are the actual “stand-ups” where the tall guys tower over the group, and the shorter people (typically women) are either talking into the chests of those guys, or they’re craning their necks up at painful angles.
I was doing daily technical meetups in the morning so that my team in India and the more local members could stay in sync and ask each other questions. Usually 10 minutes, but occasionally an hour or more when we had to go way out into the weeds.
I actually like daily standups. I know many don’t, but they can be really useful.
What did you do yesterday. What are you doing today. Any issues for the group?
Then get back to work!
Daily standups are fine, but they need to be like 10-15 minutes tops. And between 10am-1pm. Putting them at 9am sharp is just rude.
A few jobs back the director was having daily standups with the whole dev team for 60-90 minutes and sometimes longer.
The goal was to figure out why the project was behind schedule… yeah.
Yeah I hate this. At 9 I don’t remember where I was yesterday.
Ugh. I hate being on the west coast of the US. Most office jobs start at 7 or 8 AM here.
That sucks.
I sometimes work with west coat companies and the quiet time in the morning was great. It sucks having to be on calls at 8/9PM though.
God, I hear that…plus I usually need to meet with my coworkers in India, so I’m often needing to start meetings at 6 AM. I am nooooot functional that early
I usually had to do that for Europe. Most Indian coworkers I have worked with work a later schedule so there has always been a bit of overlap. Generally the Europeans I have worked with have been German and they generally have a labor rep on the board so they can fight against messed up work schedules.
Heh. Not enough coffee for mondays as it is…
Yeah, check your email, get a bit of a plan, “hey what’s your plan, what’d you do yesterday”
Keeping the meeting short was the whole point of them being “standups” (as opposed to “sit-downs”) in the first place!
Frankly, even 10 minutes is excessive: it means either people are talking too much or your team is too big.
I’m fucking sick and tired of cargo-cult managers adopting the trappings of agile without understanding WTF they’re for.
Ha! Yes.
For the first time, we are trying out a full scrum team in our company, with an external “scrum master” who really seems to know what he’s doing. It’s bloody amazing. Small team, the daily meeting has yet to exceed 10 minutes and is usually <5 minutes, the planning and refinement meeting keeps everyone in the loop. The rest of the time I can just be a happy code monkey :)
My stand-ups are at 10 am (11 am for most of the team), last between 3 and 15 minutes depending on how many of the 7 of us show up and how much everyone has to say, then we all go back to what we’re doing. My project manager and boss both care about the work that gets done rather than monitoring us to make sure we’re working the entire time, and we actually get reasonable (even generous) timelines for most things unless it’s something super important.
I love my job.
Ha, I could not be more the opposite. I want to be 75% done with my day by 1pm. I’d rather them be at 8am
I’m the same way. If I could start work at 5:00 a.m. and be off by noon or 1:00 p.m. I’d be happy. It’s just hard to find people who want to do therapy at 5:00 a.m. 😂
They are out there, in other time zones.
Indeed, move to Alaska then do therapy exclusively for east coasters.
Or Hawaii and you can do the entire US.
You know, actually I’m in Oregon, so I hadn’t thought about the fact that if I did telehealth with people who lived across the country I might be able to start at 5:00.
I’d love it if therapy hours were before and after normal work hours. On Betterhelp they are, but I gave up on it after a couple tries when I couldn’t find a good fit.
I’m allowed to set my own hours, so if it was telehealth I could theoretically do late night or morning appointments if I want to. I just haven’t really thought about that. When I eventually have my own practice. I really do want to have weekend hours and evening hours, before I worked with a lot of parents and that was one of the biggest issues was when do you have time for therapy when you’re chasing a toddler. Or like I remember when I would have friends who worked as bartenders, they wished that they could do therapy after they got off work but sometimes that would be two or three in the morning.
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Is there some kind of rule that you can’t do any work until the stand-up?
No of course not. It’s just structurally kinda weird. Not the end of the world obviously
This would be a massive waste of time if it were with the whole team every day. I don’t need to know what every other employee on the team is doing every single day, and I don’t need to spend time listening to them explain it. I’ve got shit to do.
My husband holds his team meetings at 3/4pm ish on friday on zoom with beers. Afterwards he tells everyone to fuck off home.
THAT is how you do it. It turns into a pile of geeks talking geek and part post-mortem, part decompressing from the week and they’ve actually had some absolutely mint ideas rising out of deformalising the dev pileup.
Late on a Friday? Yeah, no.
nah yeah, mate. You spend the arse end of your friday workday drinking beer and talking shit in an informal setting and then fuck off early
the problem is, then i a can’t leave at lunch if my shit’s done. And lets be honest, nobody was doing shit on friday anyhow…
Zoom meeting. Everyone works remote
there you go…forgetting service and manufacturing sectors… and everybody else who simply can’t work remote because the nature of the job precludes it.
…I’m literally talking about a developer meeting here. I was very clear from the outset on that. Go find an actual valid target.
I’d rather be doing that on my own time, or something more productive with friends, thanks.
They are getting paid for it since it is during work hours, and the beer would probably be on the company as well.
Ok, so you go hold your own weekly dev meetings
We used to have a rigorous schedule. Arrive at the office between 8-830. Make coffee and chat. At 9am we started the daily meeting. We all read what we were going to do today to each other. By then it was 1130 and so we broke for lunch. After lunch, at 1300 we would do the thing we said we would do. At 1530-1630 we would submit out updates to the project management system and produce tomorrow’s report for us to read to each other. 1700 we would go to the bar then head home around 1830.
When I started working for myself I would usually start around 9 to finish at noon, including travel time.
It wouldn’t be explaining it. It would be your teammates telling everyone where they are on the projects you all work on. If you aren’t working the same projects, then you aren’t on the same team. Or you need sub-teams. If your work is so independent you don’t rely on anyone else’s work and vice versa, then you probably don’t need standups.
I agree with you. That’s why we make our teams small enough in size that standups are 10min max, usually more like 5.
That said, it can be really beneficial to hear that Joe is working on something similar to a thing I’m going to start today. He may be able to give me some lessons learned or point me to a library.
But I completely agree that big teams a make this an annoyance. I used to be on a 20 person team and standups were completely worthless.
Now, we have 3-5 devs per team and it’s usually really quick.
So what if it’s a waste of time. Gotta make the 40 hours anyway.
I don’t like them daily, it’s too much accountability to always say something, and there’s always that one person who stretches it out.
I prefer a weekly priority list and a weekly planning meeting.
eh. i think best practice is smallish teams get everyone together once a week for the stand up. but a supe or somebody makes the rounds daily. five minute check up ‘do you need anything? get you some coffee?’, kind of conversation before going to the next.
it doesn’t impact the team if that one person wants to chat, but also gives people an opportunity to bring up concerns they wouldn’t normally bring up in a group.
largish teams need to be broken into smallish teams.
if i stood up on a video-conference everyone will see my underpants.
Do you mean standups where you are actually standing up? Many places I’ve worked have called a daily meeting a “stand-up” but it has been an hour-long sit-down meeting.
Then there are the actual “stand-ups” where the tall guys tower over the group, and the shorter people (typically women) are either talking into the chests of those guys, or they’re craning their necks up at painful angles.
I was doing daily technical meetups in the morning so that my team in India and the more local members could stay in sync and ask each other questions. Usually 10 minutes, but occasionally an hour or more when we had to go way out into the weeds.