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I work at a small company - absolutely everything from work macros, accounts and shortcuts are all intertwined in Chrome, they’ve been using it like that for ten years - it’d be faster for me to find a new job then to unclog that mess from the entire office. I still installed firefox for personal use though.
I was in the same boat. Selenium with gecko driver was a pretty simple swap, just needed to Ctrl f replace a few things.
I once commented saying something like, except for work, all Linux users should be using Firefox. And this was the reply. Some people are just fucking hopeless:
"Firefox has only ever been a sometime back-up browser for me…ever since Chrome appeared in 2007. Prior to that, I used it because it was the sole usable alternative to Internet Exploder…
The Mozilla devs, for far too long, spent more time stabbing each other in the back than they did writing code and fixing the tons of problems that were always inherent in the code. It’s the only browser I’ve ever used that used to regularly crash & burn at least a dozen times a day. And ya wonder why people flocked to Chrome?"
But it’s true.
Serious question. Is it actually better for the typical user? I don’t mean people commenting here. I’m thinking about the majority that don’t care about privacy, blocking ads, quality technology, etc. for those people, I’m guessing that Firefox is equivalent. Just another browser that works fine. So why switch??
For the overwhelming majority of users, they won’t know the difference between using the two. People here are on a high inhaling the air in this echo chamber.
I’ve used Chrome on every device imaginable since Chrome was a thing. I’ve had a negligible amount of problems, in all my years. I absolutely hate that Google shuts services down when they get bored. And I absolutely hate what they did with Google Music and Google Chats, and Domains.
I move off Google services when they shut down. Besides that, I’ve no problems with the ones I use (minus nitpicks and the above products).
So to anyone here feeling bad and are afraid to comment on here because they don’t want to lose Internet points, fret not. There are millions of us perfectly satisfied using Google, PAYING for their services where we see fit, and generally not worrying at all about any of this.
What about the ad blocker changes they’re making? That’s pretty much the line for me. I use chrome everywhere but when ublock stops working well that’ll be me jumping ship. The web is a fucking unreadable cesspool without a solid adblocker running.
The adblock changes is a shit stain, absolutely agree with you there.
For my household, personally, it won’t make a difference because I have a pihole blocking everything from all devices. So that change isn’t enough to persuade me to make a move.
But yes, anyone who doesn’t have pihole of and uses adblockers, it will be 100% understandable for them to jump ship.
some small problems i face is that
while i use youtube it runs slower.
and the quick image search feature using google lens is not present.
and telegram voice call does not work.
Where as,
youtube = googlie
google lens = googlie
and
telegram via web requires chromium api, so = googlieHmm, proprietary things that are totally under the control of the corpo in question run slower or not at all on the corpo’s competitor’s browser. I wonder if that isn’t exactly what avoid a monoculture is all about preventing?
Ah yes, google nerfing its own services under another browser for its own gain definitely isn’t the issue here.
You can use a different frontend for YouTube. You’ve got Freetube for pc, Yattee for MacOS and iOS and piped on any platform. These solutions also protect your privacy and block ads.
If only they actually worked. Never understand how they get recommended constantly and yet repeatedly I try to use them and they don’t work.
I’m using Freetube on Windows, it works like a charm. Feel free to dm me if you need help.
Is that one a desktop app? I primarily use pop_OS and would prefer a web solution. I’ve tried piped, invidious, peertube, and libretube iirc
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My problem with these is that the quality is always bad. Usually 720p max and only H.264 instead of VP9. YouTube quality is already bad enough as it is and nerfing it even more feels awful.
That’s because YouTube detects the browser you are using, and slows it down for browsers that aren’t their own.
Would changing the user_agent be helpful here?
I’ve seen mixed reviews on whether or not that’s effective.
You use TG in a browser?
To be fair, chromebooks are great devices for kids, and the family link platform makes keeping them “secure”, easier… a lot easier!!!
Even on Chromebooks you can install Firefox.
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It grinds me a bit, as I did have a Linux version if Firefox installed on my Chromebook, but because the book is just a sofa device and doesn’t get any love (especially from the little shits), it runs dog slow, so I end up just using chrome on it, and suffer the pain of not having things synced between devices. Thankfully the most important thing, bitwarden is syncing, so I can manage the suffering.
Chrome is great at multi-user switching. FF in comparison is @$$ in that respect… I went back to FF around a month ago after a decade long hiatus.
Horses and water
Firefox is better on desktop, but on mobile it still sucks, sometimes it is even refusing to load websites.
No lie, I actually had to shift to Chrome from Firefox today. Some websites are straight-up broken on Firefox, while others load painfully slow (e.g. try arc.net on Firefox vs any Chromium-based browser). Not to mention the massive shame of Mozilla leadership treating its own flagship product as a second-class citizen in favour of “AI initiatives” or whatever the fuck those C-suites want to stud into their resumes.
Firefox is right there and is a better browser to boot. I genuinely have no idea why
I used to use mozilla by Mozilla, too. THAT’s why.
Okay I’m happy to switch, I used to use Firefox years ago until Chrome came along and it’s a great browser, but can I integrate my Google accounts with it?
I want it to sync all my stuff to my Google accounts, and so far I’ve not found another browser that can do this :-(
I’m also not sure if all the plugins I have would have Firefox implementations, maybe they do. I use Darkreader, some password vault stuff, uBlock, SponsorBlock and the other YouTube one they make (I forget the name) are an absolute must, too.
Firefox sync will do the same without spying on you.
What do you want to integrate with your Google account? Imo that’s something to specifically avoid, not something to seek out. But I may be not understanding what you mean
All my bookmarks, search history, browsing history (so I can type a portion of a URL into my address bar, say a word or so, and have it find the page I want even though my own memory fails me), that sort of thing. Plus it works across all my devices.
And casting pages or my desktop or such to my Chromecast is really handy too, and so is the Chrome Remote Desktop feature that I use sometimes to remote in to my PC. I don’t know how many of those things Firefox has, maybe it casts and stuff too.
But yeah I use all that kinda stuff, and of course it keeps me logged in to all the Google services I use, like my emails, YouTube, Drive, Docs, Maps, etc, and facilitates using that stuff seamlessly without issues, which is great.
I’m deep in the Google ecosystem basically, and I’d be happy to switch browsers just so long as that deep functionality remained, know what I mean?
Some people here really hate Google (like, specifically on Lemmy people seem unusually angry about them existing), but they seem no worse (or better) than any of the other companies that offer all this stuff, so I might as well pick my poison as it were. They’re all evil at the end of the day, haha.
Sure, I could run 20 different individual open source services on a server to do everything I use Google for, albeit without integrations and likely a bit more muddled and less feature complete, requiring ongoing care and upkeep, and that IS kinda appealing, I do get why, I used to do the homelab/home-sysadmin stuff for fun, but I just don’t have the time or patience to do that stuff these days, you know?
I got older, and now I just want a functioning service that I don’t need to fiddle around with these days, and that way of life extends to my browser too. Give me a good browser that lets me do what I want with all the integrations I like, and I’m happy.
Right now I’m not happy with Chrome because of their ad blocker policy, and how locked down plugins are in general. And I want to theme it! Firefox used to let you change everything in a themed all the colours, icons, element sizes and so on, it was dope. I assume they still do that, I’d love that.
Anyway, I hope that answers your question :-) Sorry if it is a bit muddled, I blame ADHD brain :-P
Damn, no replies. I’m in the same boat. I’m kinda waiting for Google to break adblock so I finally have the push to make the switch.
Firefox has Firefox Accounts which will do just the same. All those extensions are also available. You may find the odd extension is missing but there is usually a decent replacement about.
All work on Firefox.
While you can’t use Google password-manager easily on Firefox (probably there is a plugin for that) the Firefox password-manager is better in my opinion.
The Google account stuff works mostly, but I don’t know what you exactly want to do. You should try it out.
Firefox is not the better browser in anything but privacy. Maybe it could win in customisability, but that’s something only a few percent of users care about.
It has longer load times and sometimes breaks sites entirely while using about the same resources. Yes, the reason for that is that website creators don’t deliberately support it, but the normal user only cares about functionality.
I still use it and recommend it to anyone that asks, but saying that it’s the better browser is just delusional.
Chrome’s developer tools are better, and having two browsers open at the same time while programming is a strain on RAM resources, especially since Visual Studio Code needs to run in its own Chromium.
Have you checked recently? Chrome devtools have been getting steadily worse the last few years, and Firefox’s keeps getting better.
I haven’t seen anything getting worse, but I agree that the Firefox dev tools are now barely usable. They weren’t before.
FF dev tools haven’t been shitty for like more than 10 years
I honestly have no idea what this guy is talking about. I use dev tools in Firefox all the time and they’re pretty much the same as Chrome.
Right, they’re great. They were a little janky in 2012 and before or something but yeah Chrome only enjoyed maybe 1-2 years even back then of being better
… strain on RAM resources? What year is it?
The year where a browser can easily eat up 10GB of RAM.
On my Mac mini with 8GB, just having Visual Studio Code open is enough to fill up the RAM. No other programs necessary.
8gb of RAM? What year is this?
A lot of more budget devices still have 4 and 8 gigs. Not to mention all the older devices.
Your WORKstation is for working. Budget devices are not for working.
The new MacBook Pro Apple just released a few days ago comes with 8GB in the lower two tiers.
A Mac mini with 8Gb of ram is sadly not an appropriate config for programming anymore.
I just use it for building and deploying to macOS/iOS. I don’t want to spend four digit prices just for that (I’m a freelancer).
It’s 2024. 32GB is a min requirement. I roll with 128GB because it’s a couple hundred bucks to never have to worry about RAM.
Yeah well, I can see how you don’t run into RAM issues with 128GBs of it.
Exactly. If you’re a dev, you should too.
Idk, twenty twenty-something. But Chromium with the YouTube homepage takes less RAM than GNOME Software and GNOME Shell, which either says I should move to Xfce or that Chromium has improved. Can’t speak on VS Code though since I run that in a distrobox and podman is broken for me rn.
“But Chrome is slightly more convenient! Why would I suffer tiny inconvenience today in order to save me from way greater inconvenience later? Who am I? Some reasonable person?” - typical Chrome user.
As a former chrome user it’s so real. Chrome connects every device for you and once you ARE in the loop it’s hard to leave it. Wanna switch to Firefox? Oops suddenly your authentication doesn’t work anymore. Oh what about those useful Google logins tied to everything now? Good luck with that.
It took me huge effort to switch off chromium based browsers because the longer you use chrome, the more it worms it’s way into all your services making it harder and harder to switch. I still can’t figure out how to seperate my Yahoo account from my Gmail account
A huge reason I left is realising that if google decided I broke their TOS on something like say, YouTube ad blocking, they can just terminate by Google account and every service attached to it suddenly becomes unusable. I’d rather not be taken hostage like that
Edit: for all the wise people in the comments. I was trying to decouple entirely from Google products, not just chrome
What you’re describing sounds more like over-reliance on Google services than the browser. I don’t use gmail or google logins anywhere, I just have Bitwarder plugin to manage my authentication and use masked emails to create accounts. I did the same in all the different browsers I used over the years and never had any issues with it or with switching between browsers.
You’re right, but that’s still a valid concern. Many people are much more ingrained in the Google ecosystem, especially through Android.
We’re seeing this issue with Microsoft in the buisness space, too.
And if course we’ve been seeing it with Apple for decades.
These massive corporations have a great deal of people so ingrained in their interconnected services, it’s next to impossible to convince them to extract themselves.
This is why the EU regulations focus on “gatekeepers”. Because users will not make the necessary changes in their habits to combat the abhorrent practices in the industry. There is no true free market here. So the solution is to regulate the shit out of these gatekeepers to make them open up and play fair.
IMHO unfortunately most people will always go for what’s more convenient, don’t care about their privacy and don’t mind ads and there’s not much we can do about it. Eventually all the content on the web will be locked up behind a paywall and/or accompanied by nu-blockable ads. Most users won’t mind that. We’ll be left with what we can host/support ourselves like lemmy or mastodon.
Yeah that was exactly the issue. When I wanna “Degoogle” I mean not just the browser, I mean step out of the entire ecosystem
Firefox syncs across devices as well, if you sign up for a Firefox account and enable sync. This works for bookmarks, logins, history, and you can even access remote tabs if you want. It’s also easy to send a single page from one device to another.
On desktop, Firefox has an import feature that will pull your bookmarks and logins m other browsers (like Chrome) into your Firefox profile.
Even if you’re neck-deep in Google services, Chrome doesn’t do anything special.
Even if you’re neck-deep in Google services, Chrome doesn’t do anything special.
Actually, being able to cast to other devices is very easy to do with Chrome, but extremely hard to impossible to do with Firefox, unfortunately.
Yeee I’m using Firefox. It’s just difficult to desynch the Google services with all my accounts tied to it I had to one by one change em or even make new accounts entirely.
The worst is the fucking Google authentication app and how it’s tied into stuff like Discord…At least I’m out of the Google ouroboros now but it was still intensely painful.
I don’t understand the problem. Google services work in Firefox pretty much the same way, yeah? Does Chrome integrate an authenticator app? If som you might want change your 2FA settings at https://myaccount.google.com/security . If you have an Android phone you can get push notifications on it, or you can also use third-party authenticator apps.
…the problem is that I wanna get rid of Google services lol.
Oh, gotcha. I misunderstood and thought you were describing a Chrome-vs-Firefox difference specifically. Yeah, I can relate. I’m de-googling my life but I’m not sure I’ll ever be 100% de-googled. I’m taking it bit by bit. I sign up for new things with different email addresses now and occasionally I’ll change existing services if it’s possible. But there’s no way I’m going to go through my bajillion web site accounts and move them all.
the fucking Google authentication app and how it’s tied into stuff like Discord
The one that implements the open standard TOTP that has a bunch of open source implementations?
Now I’m really happy that all the way back in the late 90s I learned as a software professional that depending on a 3rd party for anything essential is highly likely to eventually come around and bit you.
So when the whole Single Sign-On (via Google, Facebook and so on) bollocks started becoming fashionable over a decade ago I just saw it as a single-point-of-failure dependency on a provider and avoided it.
Ditto with Gmail - I’ve been renting my own domain with e-mail service included for almost two decades exactly because my ultimate dependency on that service is a national DNS Registar (not even the provider as I can just move over my domain and e-mail archive to another one) which can’t just turn around and screw customers because they’re the very same one on which massive companies depend for the proper working of everything linked to the domain names (thinks banks depending on them for customers reaching their website and e-mailing them).
I highly recommend the practice on thinking “how critical is this for me” and “what would happen if these people went bankrupt or changed their minds” when you’re considering getting into a situation were there is a continuous dependency on some external 3rd party provider (this is also why Software As A Service can be a really bad idea versus just buying the bloody software if you’re using it regularly and data that you might need for years is stuck in their system with no chance of exporting it).
Absolutelly: need to use something once or twice, it’s fine, but for everyday life or as a requirement for your business operations, depending on an external actor from which you can’t easilly switch and who doesn’t have some kind of iron-clad tight legal contract with you that includes stiff monetary penalties for non compliance (and, even then, they might just go bankrupt) is a pretty risky choice.
You don’t have to use the Google Authentication app for 2FA/MFA.
Chrome connects every device for you
What? Besides debugging things on mobile devices, I’ve never sought to connect any device to chrome. Btw this exact same process works in FF too. You’re talking about chrome like it’s an operating system.
I didn’t have this experience at all. I switch browsers all the time just so I can know how they are, it’s painless every time. I’ve used non-chromium edge, chromium Edge, Brave, Chrome, Firefox, OperaGX, and probably something else. Chrome is probably my least favorite, as it just doesn’t have any bells and whistles.
Oh I was way deeper than just browser
I unfortunately had an account, my entire phone linked to it, my Microsoft account linked to it and even my authenticator app linked to it which was responsible for 2FA on most of my non Google accounts.
It was all interlinked in a way that made removing it from the root hard
I can’t say I relate to that at all. I’m not sure what you mean by having your MS account linked to chrome, and stuff like my authenticator is on my phone, I didn’t even know you could use chrome as an authenticator.
what about those useful Google logins tied to everything now? Good luck with that.
What? You can still use your Google account without Chrome…
Unless you’re not talking about OAuth. Is it Chrome’s password manager? Because I’m pretty sure that’s easily exportable…
That’s exactly the issue I mean. I wanted to not just move away from Google and Google Chrome
I wanted to move away from the entire Google ecosystem including the accounts
For me it was as easy as download > export bookmarks and passwords. Nothing broke. I even still use my google account to login to some services. It just brings up the google popup and I’m in.
What authentication doesn’t work anymore in FF…?
We can’t forget that a lot of people have absolutely no idea that this is happening or what it means. Many folks just think the Chrome icon is how you access the internet and have no idea that there are other options. Helping to educate those folks is going to be a significant part of minimizing Chrome’s dominance.
This comment is 20 years old if you replace the word Chrome with Internet Explorer.
As true now as it was then.
It was literally in the chrome “manifesto” when it launched.
I use Edge. Seems to be working out for me pretty good.
Edge is chromium btw
with microsoft’s crapware added instead.
the vertical tabs are fantastic but can’t stand using MS. then i discovered Arc and never looked back. lots of super cool novel ideas coming out of that team. it is based on chromium though. but it’s sooo niiiice :/
Yeah, I’ll never use Chrome again. Google has always been shady, but this latest round of anti-features is unbelievable. I’m shocked there’s been no anti-trust suits related to what they’re doing with Chrome. Firefox is just a better browser with way more security options and extension support. That alone is enough for me to stick with it.
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And they are too rich and too old to know or care
Me, a foss contributer choosing edge because it’s a more convenient browser 🤷♂️
Shit like this is why it’s 25 years later and we’re still joking about year of the Linux desktop.
At some point just accept your objectives are mutually exclusive.
More power to you! Edge isn’t bad, it just has bad affiliations. I’ll keep using Firefox though :^)
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you can always enable Project Fission for a better sandbox in Firefox.
lmao at the thought of mozilla suing microsoft. Basically no resources vs functionally infinite resources, they would stand no chance at all. I don’t know if you’ve noticed but our legal system is based on a variation of might vs right, we could call it rich vs bitch for convenience
I’ve been removing Google services from my life bit by bit over the past year, and I have to say it is crazy how hard it actually is! They have inserted themselves into so many digital workflows, securing monopoly positions and preventing the rise of competitors and open ecosystems. In many areas the only alternatives are other tech giants, or accepting feature downgrades and having to set things up manually.
I’m really glad that the browser is one area where the transition is actually very simple and straightforward!
Firefox has always been great to use for me.
Chrome: First-party spyware.
If Firefox goes away, I’ll use Epiphany or Konquerer before I subject myself to anything that makes me view ads.
FF has way too much groundwork laid and way too much mindshare currently (especially given the rust language and all…) If, for some reason, thousands of devs just gave up on mozilla, more would continue the path and fork it most likely.
Mozilla is the result of people giving up on Netscape. It will live!
It’s the result of Netscape losing to anti-trust behaviour by Microsoft and open sourcing their code as a final parting gift.
Netscape was struck down Firefox rose.
And that’s surely why it was originally called Phoenix!
I hope that’s true, because I’m hearing rumblings that Mozilla is moving away from it as their core project.
I’ve used Firefox for years. It’s always been the underdog imo.
If it ever becomes the top dog, I’ll switch! To the next privacy underdog. More competition is good.
Made the switch to Firefox last year. Love, love, love the freshness and versatility of the browser! Also add-ons for mobile!!!
I’ve read so many bs paid-off articles recently how chrome is so much better than firefox, or firefox has nothing left to give to its users
Lots of people can’t just straight up ditch it. I have had multiple websites just don’t work with Firefox regardless of whatever add-ons I put. For me I just go into a Windows sandbox, but there’s people who are not that tech savvy and it’s often forced on them. Also iirc most schools have chrome books they let students use. So it’s basically forced onto people.
Do you have any examples? I have used Firefox for years and never experienced this, nor heard of anyone I know who uses Firefox experiencing this.
Not the commenter, but…
I play tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder 2e for those care) online with some friends, and we use a website which hosts the program (forge-vtt.com).
For the life of me, I cannot get it to behave on Firefox. Maps will be pitch black while on Chrome they render perfectly. I’ve tried every permutation of browser setting and extension toggling I can think of to no avail.
Tried switching off hardware acceleration?
Yup, that was the common suggestion I was finding, but no luck with it on or off.
I’ve hit the odd site where a menu doesn’t work the way it should, the payment form doesn’t work, overall form validation is wonky, or the captcha doesn’t work. I attribute most of these to slight nuances in javascript between browsers.
I’m a (old, grey) dev, and I’ve had to shame colleagues into testing in mobile browsers other than Chrome and Safari.
Oftentimes, when I use Firefox (Main browser on my phone) things just don’t render/show up. One thing I noticed was when I input my area code to find a package distribution center, and it straight up didn’t show. Iirc it relied on Google maps for showing these places.
It worked in Chrome. Not pointing any fingers, it’s just odd, is what I’m saying.
I use Firefox except for one thing: web serial. Chrome is the only browser that supports it. Luckily you only need it the when setting up an ESP32 for the first time and can do updates wirelessly.
This is the Proxmox console on any of my VMs or LXCs in Firefox. Works just peachy in any Chromium-based browser.
This is fixable. Firefox is blocking HTML5 canvas stuff. I found a screenshot that shows you what to do: https://imgur.com/a/hdvyBtx
Thanks mate. Fixed it right up.
Today there was a page on my bank that just would not load in Firefox even though the rest of the site was fine. Switched to Chrome and it worked fine. I only use Chrome in these situations.
If a website or app doesn’t test in Firefox, I avoid it. That’s something I run into like once a year, and I just use edge once if I need to, and avoid that website or app in the future. It’s not hard to support Firefox, it’s just a shitty ass business decision not to
Use a Chromium fork instead if you’re having so much trouble. Thorium is a decent alternative.
I have had multiple websites just don’t work with Firefox regardless of whatever add-ons I put.
The exact reason why we encurage to ditch Chrome.
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I have had multiple websites just don’t work with Firefox regardless of whatever add-ons I put.
Have you tried to change the browser’s user agent ?
Just another reason to avoid it as much as possible.
Chrome is the new reddit
We really need more browser engines floating around.
As of now we really only have 3, Webkit,
FirefoxGecko, andChromiumBlink.Everything is based on these 3. And I know, technically chromium and firefox are both based on webkit, but they’re so far gone from webkit they function as their own engines.
Firefox isn’t based on WebKit. Maybe you’re thinking Safari.
Ultimately you really only have KHTML (what Webkit was forked from), Gecko, Triton (IE classic), and I can’t recall what the new (now dead) engine in IE11 was called. The rest are forks, mostly of Webkit/KHTML.
I guess there’s Ladybird and Servo too, but they are a way still from being used as a daily driver.
I doubt that’s what they meant since Safari currently uses WebKit. But yeah, maybe they meant how WebKit is a fork of KHTML and Chrome is a fork of WebKit.
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tbh i think it would be better if there was a single collaborative engine instead, owned by a non-profit company like The Linux Foundation
maybe the W3C could establish their own but idk if they even do anything these days
In this case I still feel like that’s an improvement.
Embrace extend extinguish
It’s almost already too late at this point
Not going to lie, I really hate when the internet gets a new favorite phrase. Destroys discussion on the subjects and feels like it’s a race for commenters to say the hit phrase.
Lemmy is chock full of stupid people on the right team for the wrong reasons. They treat switching to Linux and FF the same way someone would declare they gave their life to Jesus Christ.
Most of them can’t even explain why something is good or bad without resorting to the catch phrase of the day. “Enshittification”, “EEE”, “Chrome bad cuz capitalism or something, gib updoots.”
I hate when that happens too, it’s the enshittification of the discussions.
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO GOOGLE!!!
If what you were gonna say is quashed by people knowing the big corpo tricks and treachery, then chances are what you had to say served no interests but corpo interest to begin with.
Username checks out.
Maybe we’re just tired of sheep. Even sheep that happened to end up on the right side.
At least he’s honest. Props for that.
I mean he’s dead wrong, but the user name is refreshing.
You’re doing an awful lot of Baaaa-ing over there to cry about other people being sheep.
It’s not. In the late 90s it was pretty much just IE after Netscape died. Mozilla came from the ashes.
Literally. It was originally built on the Netscape engine before making Gecko and transitioning to that.
extinguishing Chromium is the goal, isn’t it?
As of now we really only have 3, Webkit, Firefox, and Chromium.
Webkit is the only browser engine in that list; the other 2 are browsers, not engines. Firefox uses the Gecko engine. Chrome/chromium use Blink engine.
Gecko came from Netscape. Webkit came from KHTML. Pretty sure Gecko/Firefox are not Webkit based. Blink is though.
We really need more browser engines floating around.
No don’t
Yes, we do. The lack of competition is letting Google consolidate power.
I think their point is that it’s going to fragment things for web developers and make stuff more difficult to manage.
Not if things are written to standards.
Don’t Be Evil!
