Artificial intelligence firm Anthropic hits out at copyright lawsuit filed by music publishing corporations, claiming the content ingested into its models falls under ‘fair use’ and that any licensing regime created to manage its use of copyrighted material in training data would be too complex and costly to work in practice
GenAI tools ‘could not exist’ if firms are made to pay copyright::undefined
Copyright can only be granted to works created by a human, but I don’t know of any such restriction for fair use. Care to share a source explaining why you think only humans are able to use fair use as a defense for copyright infringement?
Because a human has to use talent+effort to make something that’s fair use. They adapt a product into something that while similar is noticeably different. AI will
make things that are not just similar but not noticeably different.
There’s not an effort in creation. There’s human thought behind a prompt but not on the AI following it.
If allowed to AI companies will basically copyright everything…
You are aware of the insane amounts of research, human effort and the type of human talent that is required to make a simple piece of software, let alone a complex artificial neural network model whose function is to try and solve whatever stuff…right?
I don’t agree. The publisher of the material does not get to dictate what it is used for. What are we protecting at the end of the day and why?
In the case of a textbook, someone worked hard to explain certain materials in a certain way to make the material easily digestible. They produced examples to explain concepts. Reproducing and disseminating that material would be unfair to the author who worked hard to produce it.
But the author does not have jurisdiction over the knowledge gained. They cannot tell the reader that they are forbidden from using the knowledge gained to tutor another person in calculus. That would be absurd.
IP law protects the works of the creator. The author of a calculus textbook did not invent calculus. As such, copyright law does not apply.
Reproduction of copyrighted material would be breaking the law. Studying it and using it as reference when creating original content is not.
I’m curious why we think otherwise when it is a student obtaining an unauthorized copy of a textbook to study, or researchers getting papers from sci-hub. Probably because it benefits corporations and they say so?
While I would like to be in a world where knowledge is free, this is apples and oranges.
OpenAI can purchase a textbook and read it. If their AI uses the knowledge gained to explain maths to an individual, without reproducing the original material, then there’s no issue.
The difference is the student in your example didn’t buy their textbook. Someone else bought it and reproduced the original for others to study from.
If OpenAI was pirating textbooks, that would be a wholly separate issue.
The fact that the “AI” can spit out whole passages verbatim when given the right prompts, suggests that there is a big problem here and they haven’t a clue how to fix it.
It’s not “learning” anything other than the probable order of words.
I really hate this reduction of gpt models. Is the model probabilistic? Absolutely. But it isn’t simply learning a comprehensible probability of words–it is generating a massively complex conditional probability sequence for words. Largely, humans might be said to do the same thing. We make a best guess at the sequence of words we decide to use based on conditional probabilities along a myriad number of conditions (including semantics of the thing we want to say).
Completely agree. And that should be the focal point of the issue.
Sam Altman is correctly stating that AI is not possible without using copyrighted materials. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
His mistake is not redirecting the conversation. He should be talking about the efforts they’re making to stop their machine from reproducing copyrighted works. Not whether or not they should be allowed to use it in the first place.
whether AI output are derivative works of its input, and
whether input to AI is fair use and requires no compensation
are separate, but I think they are related, in that AI companies are trying to impose whatever interpretation of copyright that is convenient to them to the rest of the society.
Then every single student graduating college produces derivative work.
Everything that required the underlying knowledge gained from the textbooks studied, or research papers read, is derivative work.
At the core of this, what are we saying? Your machine could only explain calculus because it was provided information from multiple calculus textbooks? Well, that applies to literally everyone.
This ruling only applies to the 2nd Circuit and SCOTUS has yet to take up a case. As soon as there’s a good fact pattern for the Supreme Court of a circuit split, you’ll get nationwide information. You’ll also note that the decision is deliberately written to provide an extremely narrow precedent and is likely restricted to Google Books and near-identical sources of information.
Have there been any US ruling stating something along the lines of “The training of general purpose LLMs and/or image generation AIs does not qualify as fair use,” even in a lower court?
Hell, that article is also all about Google Books, which is an entirely different beast from generative AI. One of the key points from the circuit judge was that Google Books’ use of copyrighted material “…[maintains] respectful consideration for the rights of authors and other creative individuals, and without adversely impacting the rights of copyright holders.” The appeals court, in upholding the ruling that Google Books’ use of copyrighted content is fair use, ruled “the revelations do not provide a significant market substitute for the protected aspects of the originals.”
If you think that gen AI doesn’t provide a significant market substitute for the artwork created by the artists and authors used to train these models, or that it doesn’t adversely impact their rights, then you’re utterly delusional.
So they’re admitting that their entire business model requires them to break the law. Sounds like they shouldn’t exist.
Reproduction of copyrighted material would be breaking the law. Studying it and using it as reference when creating original content is not.
humans studying it, is fair use.
So if a tool is involved, it’s no longer ok? So, people with glasses cannot consume copyrighted material?
No. A tool already makes it unnatural. /S
Copyright can only be granted to works created by a human, but I don’t know of any such restriction for fair use. Care to share a source explaining why you think only humans are able to use fair use as a defense for copyright infringement?
Because a human has to use talent+effort to make something that’s fair use. They adapt a product into something that while similar is noticeably different. AI will
make things that are not just similar but not noticeably different.
There’s not an effort in creation. There’s human thought behind a prompt but not on the AI following it.
If allowed to AI companies will basically copyright everything…
Your reply has nothing to do with fair use doctrine.
You are aware of the insane amounts of research, human effort and the type of human talent that is required to make a simple piece of software, let alone a complex artificial neural network model whose function is to try and solve whatever stuff…right?
Good point. I say the software can be copywrite protected, but not the content the program generates.
And that is human effort, not the AIs.
I don’t agree. The publisher of the material does not get to dictate what it is used for. What are we protecting at the end of the day and why?
In the case of a textbook, someone worked hard to explain certain materials in a certain way to make the material easily digestible. They produced examples to explain concepts. Reproducing and disseminating that material would be unfair to the author who worked hard to produce it.
But the author does not have jurisdiction over the knowledge gained. They cannot tell the reader that they are forbidden from using the knowledge gained to tutor another person in calculus. That would be absurd.
IP law protects the works of the creator. The author of a calculus textbook did not invent calculus. As such, copyright law does not apply.
I’m curious why we think otherwise when it is a student obtaining an unauthorized copy of a textbook to study, or researchers getting papers from sci-hub. Probably because it benefits corporations and they say so?
While I would like to be in a world where knowledge is free, this is apples and oranges.
OpenAI can purchase a textbook and read it. If their AI uses the knowledge gained to explain maths to an individual, without reproducing the original material, then there’s no issue.
The difference is the student in your example didn’t buy their textbook. Someone else bought it and reproduced the original for others to study from.
If OpenAI was pirating textbooks, that would be a wholly separate issue.
The fact that the “AI” can spit out whole passages verbatim when given the right prompts, suggests that there is a big problem here and they haven’t a clue how to fix it.
It’s not “learning” anything other than the probable order of words.
I really hate this reduction of gpt models. Is the model probabilistic? Absolutely. But it isn’t simply learning a comprehensible probability of words–it is generating a massively complex conditional probability sequence for words. Largely, humans might be said to do the same thing. We make a best guess at the sequence of words we decide to use based on conditional probabilities along a myriad number of conditions (including semantics of the thing we want to say).
Completely agree. And that should be the focal point of the issue.
Sam Altman is correctly stating that AI is not possible without using copyrighted materials. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
His mistake is not redirecting the conversation. He should be talking about the efforts they’re making to stop their machine from reproducing copyrighted works. Not whether or not they should be allowed to use it in the first place.
I agree that the issues
are separate, but I think they are related, in that AI companies are trying to impose whatever interpretation of copyright that is convenient to them to the rest of the society.
And indeed Meta pirated books to feed its AI.
https://www.techspot.com/news/101507-meta-admits-using-pirated-books-train-ai-but.html
The model itself is a derivative work. It’s existence is what is under dispute. It’s not about using the model to produce further works
Then every single student graduating college produces derivative work.
Everything that required the underlying knowledge gained from the textbooks studied, or research papers read, is derivative work.
At the core of this, what are we saying? Your machine could only explain calculus because it was provided information from multiple calculus textbooks? Well, that applies to literally everyone.
Charge AI recurring tuition then.
You might want to read this post from one of the EFF’s senior lawyers on the topic who has previously litigated IP cases:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/04/how-we-think-about-copyright-and-ai-art-0
It doesn’t break the law at all. The courts have already ruled that copyrighted material can be fed into AI/ML models for training:
https://towardsdatascience.com/the-most-important-supreme-court-decision-for-data-science-and-machine-learning-44cfc1c1bcaf
This ruling only applies to the 2nd Circuit and SCOTUS has yet to take up a case. As soon as there’s a good fact pattern for the Supreme Court of a circuit split, you’ll get nationwide information. You’ll also note that the decision is deliberately written to provide an extremely narrow precedent and is likely restricted to Google Books and near-identical sources of information.
Have there been any US ruling stating something along the lines of “The training of general purpose LLMs and/or image generation AIs does not qualify as fair use,” even in a lower court?
Hell, that article is also all about Google Books, which is an entirely different beast from generative AI. One of the key points from the circuit judge was that Google Books’ use of copyrighted material “…[maintains] respectful consideration for the rights of authors and other creative individuals, and without adversely impacting the rights of copyright holders.” The appeals court, in upholding the ruling that Google Books’ use of copyrighted content is fair use, ruled “the revelations do not provide a significant market substitute for the protected aspects of the originals.”
If you think that gen AI doesn’t provide a significant market substitute for the artwork created by the artists and authors used to train these models, or that it doesn’t adversely impact their rights, then you’re utterly delusional.
I guess I can’t read anything and learn from it.
i don’t think it’s need rules against the law…