good idea/bad idea, necessary democratic reform or authoritarian imposition? are there better or worse ways to do it?
Australia has compulsory voting with penalties for not voting. It ensures that people who don’t think they have a voice or that their vote doesn’t change anything actually are required to make their voice heard, even if they think that it doesn’t matter.
We also have first past the post voting, so using said voice is never a waste.
FPTP is the shitty undemocratic system America and the UK use.
We use Instant Runoff Voting, which is a type of preferential (also called “ranked choice”) system. Which, as you say, means you aren’t wasting your vote by voting third party.
My mistake, thanks for the correction!
He’s bragging about a system that can easily lead to a candidate nobody actually wanted winning.
Australia has a lot of really borderline fascist ideas. Not a great argument.
What does one have to do with the other?
Some people in Australia absolutely have ideas like you describe, fortuitously the rest of us don’t have to vote for them.
Anti-smoking legislation is evidence of an authoritarian society. Lifestyle control and coercive paternalism appease the whims of fanatics who hold positions of influence. In a free economy, demand dictates supply. Smoking bans and restrictions are only in place because there is currently not enough demand for smoke-free establishments to appease those who claim they speak for all society. The will of a few is being forced on the many.
wanting to exist in a society where you don’t get second-hand lung cancer is not fascism, oh my god. it is perfectly socially acceptable and not even the slightest bit “authoritarian” to regulate actions that can directly harm other people. and this is an absolutely comical free-market-absolutist-brained idea of what freedom is.
Another law criminalizing something around voting? No thanks.
If the US wouldn’t just turn it into another way to oppress minorities, I might be on board, but I guarantee that Texas would find some way to do it.
“You must have registered to vote 4 weeks prior to election day.”
“We purged rolls 2 weeks before election day, and you can no longer vote without re-registering, but the date is now passed.”
“It’s also illegal not to vote, though, so you’re now a criminal.”
…which is a felony and convicted felons cannot vote
… but can become president.
I would support compulsory voting, however it would need to be very, very safeguarded against Jim Crow laws. Simply put, compulsory voting needs to be rooted in uplifting communities and from a place of education.
I would say something like a one week voting period during which time American’s learn about their local candidates, policies, and anything else about the platform. It should be treated like career day, where the entirety of the time is spent learning about things that we don’t see in our day to day lives.
However, even that I know would fail. Just looking at Trump rallies should be enough to prove that it is still flawed, because inherently it being a group of people with an ideology of hatred will come up with the worst possible {gestures at something all encompassing} imaginable.
That said, I do think having some ~40% of American’s actually voting is far, far too low. Increasing this through citizen engagement is probably how it would be best accomplished, but again, you have 63% of American’s voting for Christian policies, not for American policies. So ultimately, we are in a stage where Democracy is mathematically at odds with the base of voters, with two parties that only represent a small portion of their constituents (R’s with persecution through religious corporatocracy and D’s with corporatocracy) all while the rest of us are just trying to vote to get some local changes that will have a positive effect.
All in all, while I support a form of 100% voting, I do think it’s a multifaceted problem ranging from the issues others have mentioned, to including everyone in the vote means we also get the entirety of places like Utah and Idaho who do not want people like you or I to even exist. Not to say I want to exclude them, but I do not want policies based on anti-humanitarian agendas or hatred – that is incompatible with and antithetical to the progress and betterment of humanity.
In our current state, any form of compulsory voting will be primarily anti-humanitarian because that’s what religious voting necessitates. For compulsory voting to be viable, we would need to bolster education for both emotional and critical intelligence, and I would consider a more than single day period of voting.
Also, I’m reminded of the actual voter fraud that corporations like AT&T and people like Ajit Pai have accomplished, such as when net neutrality had thousands of dead people voting in support of corporations.
Okay, so personally I’m against trying to force people to join in electoral politics or in a better system, voting for actual issues. If a system is worth interacting with people would want to anyway.
However, even if they did, in any given system it needs to be looked at if they can. Voter supression is an issue as is not having any free time because you have to do lots of jobs, including looking after children or other (hopefully) loved ones.
Being able to not choose is, to me, as valid as actually making a choice. So while I do think it could be beneficial, I also hate the idea of losing even just that little bit of freedom. I never like the removal of options.
You could still not choose. “I abstain” and “none of these” are valid votes. Submitting an empty ballot would satisfy the law while preserving the right not to choose.
That said, some have a religious prerogative to not vote, and should be eligible for an exemption.
Even better, it makes your rejection explicit. Someone who doesn’t nake the effort to turn up to the polls isnt worth chasing their vote. Someone who turns up and says “Y’all shit” is a swing voter who can be swayed with the right policies. (Of course this all requires a healthy democracy without geremandering fuckery).
That said, some have a religious prerogative to not vote, and should be eligible for an exemption.
this is, as i understand, the case in Australia—which i would consider the most compelling example of compulsory voting in practice.
How would you feel about compulsory voting with an explicit option to decline both candidates?
It would certainly make the choice extremely deliberate.
In Canada we vote with a pencil on a piece of paper so I have spoiled my ballot in the past by not selecting a candidate and writing “NO” on the ballot
I would suggest in the future that instead of spoiling your ballot you can decline your ballot instead. Spoiled ballots are considered rejected because it’s not clear if you meant to vote for someone but messed up versus not wanting to vote. Declined ballots are separately counted and will show political parties that there are eligible voters who went through the work to show up but intentionally did not want to support any candidates on the ballot.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/ontario-votes-2022-declined-ballots-rise-1.6466308
Thank you! I didn’t know you could just do that! Though it’s been a long time since I spoiled the ballot and I do actually just vote now. But if things are that bad again I’ll know what to do.
Edit: No I can’t. The option is only available in provincial elections and only available in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. If you live in one of those provinces though, it’s a good option!
Feels authoritarian to me. I think everyone should vote! But I wouldn’t force people to. If you did, I suspect that a lot of votes that ordinarily wouldn’t have been cast would be spoiled anyway
From reading this thread so far, there seem to be good arguments for mandatory voting in a similar fashion and infrastructure as it currently is set up in Australia.
I still think compulsory voting isn’t the best way, though. Instead, the focus should be on getting people interested in politics in the first place. With the big three or four parties in my country, I (and many others my age) feel like voting for them is useless, even if you agree with their campaign promises, because at most 5% of those promises will even be partly realised. Holding politicians accountable and punishing them appropriately for acting very far from their campaign promises should be established, otherwise the mental consensus will stay “Why vote for anyone, if they just do something entirely different anyway?”
Can we first stop voter suppression, please?
Mandatory voting, for people who have passed a morality test, and a competency test.
Nobody else is allowed to vote.
for people who have passed a morality test
i don’t see how this is even theoretically tenable considering what is “moral” is entirely subjective and largely nonfalsifiable
You really don’t want tests to prevent voting. They will be used entirely for voter supression.
Yeah because there’s definitely no voter suppression going on already. Let’s make sure the dregs of society can share their dumbass opinions when things come to a general vote.
That’s a false equivalence. Building up society as a whole is better than trying to determine “the most relevant” voices.
I suspect the people who would set this test would be the exact opposite of the people you want to set this test, in more than 50% of the seats.
Oh, and a tax
Do you really want to force cousin cleatus to be involved in the leadership decisions for the country? There are entirely too many people out there with zero clue what the issues of the day even are much less to have an informed opinion on them outside what the nice person in the interwebs/TV told them is the answer.
i find this a very unpersuasive argument in any context because—if you actually believe it—it’s essentially an argument for bringing back literacy/intelligence testing in voting. and i’m sure i don’t need to tell you about the long history of that being used to disenfranchise the “wrong” people for the crime of having a certain skintone or believing in equal rights for everyone; to say nothing of other ethical issues with the notion.
You’re mixing two opposite issues there, the literacy tests you mention where in an effort to exclude people from voting.
In this this topic your asking if we should FORCE the uninformed and disinterested to vote.
These are anything but the same.
the literacy tests you mention where in an effort to exclude people from voting.
yes, which was justified with the notion of there supposedly being people who were “too uneducated” or “not-literate enough” to make decisions for themselves and therefore deserve an equal right to vote—which is the same underlying sentiment of “Do you really want to force cousin cleatus to be involved in the leadership decisions for the country?”
No, it’s not. Forcing someone who is not knowledgeable or interested to vote is in no way the same as testing whether someone is educated to determine if they should be allowed to.
Cousin cleatus can show up and write fuck you on their ballot and put it in the box if they are not knowledgeable or interested in voting. Or they can vote for the things which matter to them, because they are a member of society and should not be deprived of their right to a voice in the government which rules them as well.
I’m going to try one more time here…
Nobody said ‘deny’ at any point in this exchange. The OP said mandatory/compulsory, aka force them to do so.
Deny and compel are NOT the same thing, they are in fact functionally the opposite each other.
What point is there to compel someone who self-selects as lacking in knowledge/interest in the process. You waste time and resources for the voter, the process administrators, enforcement personnel, everyone any anyone involved including the willing and eager participants by creating longer lines and a wasting their tax funds just to satisfy a mandate by having Cleatus write ‘fuck you’ on a ballot.
If that is too complicated to understand I can’t help you.
by creating longer lines and a wasting their tax funds
This assumes the voting process will stay exactly the same as it is today
Of note - mandatory only means that it is legally required. It does not mean you have to force them to show up. It specifies nothing in terms of actual implementation, other than a law requiring a vote.
Absolutely not. You don’t think anyone deserves your vote, that’s your business.
Most places with compulsory voting still have a ‘none of the above’ option and/or write-in.
Oh yes, what a great option. Make people destroy a ballot instead of not acting like a fucking control freak.
Not compulsory – you just get a nice tax credit. Pick a number, but that’s my best idea.
