The way this comment section unironically mirrors the comic perfectly.
So many dudes here unironically talking about how men have it hard too 🤦♂️
Okay, I’ll just say it.
Everyone has it rough right now. Mostly because we’ve been thoroughly railroaded by corporations for most of our lives, but still.
Everything sucks.
I’m just going to speak my mind as a Closeted transwoman who would looks like a guy
I didn’t honestly want to get involved with this thread at all in fear of creating an absolute mess
But being trans myself I see myself having empathy for both woman’s and men’s rights because I know and understand the issues men are facing and see the issues woman are facing
I don’t like seeing the devide on either side and absolutely hate seeing the division and fighting especially when people advocate for men’s rights or woman’s rights
I personally advocate for both because I see everyone having rights as part of equality and equity and if you don’t want any one group to have rights then that isn’t equality or equity
We should be free to talk about both men’s rights and woman’s rights without being attacked for it
Someone downvoted you which is lame. All you’ve advocated for is that both groups have their issues be respected in public discourse.
WRT the first panel, I feel that way too.
That said, is this ragebait?
Responding directly to the person in the comic
I hear you when you say that as a woman, you feel societal expectations of you can be harsh and contradictory.
There isn’t a way for me to experience the same things that you experience, but I can try to empathise with your experiences by comparing them with my own, and noting times when I have felt the same way. This means that I have to compare my experiences with yours. It isn’t done from a place of contest, but from trying to relate.
Yeah, but no
There are assholes on both sides, like it or not.
Yes, there are loads of men who don’t deserve the name, that put women down, who can only be happy on the back of women. Fuck them
Having said that, I very much remember that video of guys going to a support group for men that committed uicide with feminists waiting for them outside to yell things like “it’s good that he killed himself!”. Fuck those assholes too.
Can we maybe ALL be nice to EVERYONE?
I’m sorry, but this comic doesn’t help. The reality is that both men and women face the same nonsense when they bring up what they have to contend with so how about we don’t try to disparage either side? Listen to both sides? You know, the thing we should be always doing?
I’m sorry, but this comic doesn’t help.
I don’t think it necessarily has to? Like, I agree with pretty much everything in your comment, aside from this part and what it implies. I read this comment as an expression of frustration from the artist, and it’s certainly one that I can relate to. I also realise that there’s a heckton of men who’ll relate too, because of how men who want to carve out space to talk about men’s issues can be cut off, even if they’re not the same men as the assholes who only want to talk about men’s issues when they’re speaking over a woman. However, I think that saying “both sides” to this misses the point of the comic
It can be useful to ground statements in our own personal perspectives because of how it limits the scope of what we’re saying. A smaller, messier example is that I am autistic and have done both disability activism and autism activism in the past. I am autistic and because of that, I am also disabled, and so many of my experiences as an autistic person can also apply more generally to disabled people. However, generalising a statement can be difficult, especially if on a difficult topic, such as institutional ableism. I was able to speak confidently on how that affected me personally, and to a more limited degree, how it affects other autistic people, because of who I am in community with. However, I don’t directly know any deaf people, for example, and thus I am cautious when talking about my experiences as a disabled person, lest I over-generalise. I get a similar sense from the comic’s use of “as a woman”. Grounding stuff in that way is often an attempt to limit the scope of the discussion to something more manageable when grappling with something hard to articulate.
I also do think it’s useful to recognise the difference in experience. As a silly example, I might say “as a woman, I need to breathe air in order to survive”. I could also say “as a human, I need to breathe air in order to survive”. I could also say “as an animal, I need to breathe air in order to survive”, but actually, I’d need to go and double check the facts on that last one. That’s sort of my point — sometimes statements are overly specific and should be simplified, like in the “as a [woman/human]” statements. However, limiting the scope (like in the “as a human” statement compared to the “as an animal” one) actually gives space for the possibility that some weird animals don’t need to breathe.
Apologies if I have explained this poorly. I don’t mean to come off as lecturing or argumentative; I am replying to your comment because I appreciate your points and I am open to discussion.
Honestly same thing happens when we talk about men.
Tons of women coming up, saying “women have it worse” and attempting to minimize the importance if men’s issues.
Let’s just listen to both sides for once, and make everyone heard. When everyone is given a platform to speak, there’s no need to interrupt each other.
Funnily enough you’re in the comic. Not that I think you intended that.
You’re right, and we all know who downvoted you
Comic: “I’m here to talk about women.” Heckling ensues
First Comment: “This is exactly what happens to men.” Wall of Upvotes
Proof that you can pull the users out of the Reddit but you can’t pull the Reddit out of the users.
For me, while I get where the post is coming from, a lot of the narrative seems to revolve around the dynamic of:
“We need to have an open dialog about XYZ. Let’s have a conversation.”
“Okay, then here’s ABC for context, as a comparison to XYZ.”
“Actually I’m here to talk about XYZ, not ABC. And you’re the problem for not strictly limiting this open conversation to the specific scope I want to consider.”
Like… you can either ask for open discussion or you can say, “Everybody shut up and listen to what I have to say, and unless you’re opening your mouth to completely agree with me in every way, don’t bother because I’m not here for anything other than letting you all know what I think.”
I’m not saying that the points are wrong or bad, just that it’s a bad look to start out with talking about an interest in having a dialogue, then as soon as there’s any expansion of the scope of discussion, suddenly being unhappy that there’s thoughts different from where it started out, and playing the victim or worse, blaming whoever took the invitation for an open dialogue at face value and engaged in good faith.
I feel like that’s a pretty gross misrepresentation of the issue.
The people in the comic (and in the comments here) are often trying to minimize the issue on which she is speaking, or co-opt the conversation for their own issues (typically forcing her and the original issue to the sidelines). They’re not adding context or having a discussion in good faith.
Like… you can either ask for open discussion or you can say, “Everybody shut up and listen to what I have to say, and unless you’re opening your mouth to completely agree with me in every way
There’s a big middle area you’re ignoring.
Why does everything have to be so us-vs.-them? We all share the same planet.
Outrage is the new thing. Many people aren’t happy or able to feel like their life is affirmed without being angry with someone or at something and it’s vital to their ideology to impose their values on others.
Non compliance with their demands is non optional.
Is outrage all that new? It strikes me as evergreen
Sometimes certain subsets of the planet have problems particular to their region, culture, or cohort.
Telling a person wandering through the desert “I also get thirsty” maybe deflects from the issue at hand.
Telling a person wandering through the desert “I also get thirsty” maybe deflects from the issue at hand.
Or… That may be a show of support, in sharing of a common burden, a message of, “You are not alone in this struggle.”
Rather than always seeing it as a negative, maybe allow for the possibility that it’s coming from a different place.
Honestly, I feel like this whole sentiment of, “Don’t attempt to bring any context into a conversation. Only stick strictly to what one person has decided to talk about.” is not only counterproductive in that moment, but also in the medium and long term has a marked effect in shutting down future conversations about difficult and uncomfortable topics.
I mean, how many times does a person get into a conversation that starts with, “Can we talk about X?” or “Let’s have an open, honest discussion about Y?”…only to add something to that conversation and be told, “No, you’re wrong for bringing that up. We’re only talking about X and why it’s the worst thing ever.”… before they get to the point where the next time someone says, “Can we talk about Z?” they just say, “No, sorry. Not interested.”?
Because humans like to make up categories which naturally cause inequality of some kind. I don’t want this but it’s the way it is and to pretend otherwise is ignorant and silly.
Many of these problems while not strictly zero sum are pretty close to it.
To everyone saying they’ve never seen this happen, but the opposite happens all the time, I’d like you to try something. Show this comic to a woman in your life and ask if they’ve ever felt this way. Just try it, and listen more than you talk.
I was really hoping the comments here would be better.
Embarassing, tbh.I follow a lot of women on socials, including this artist, and this shit happens on pretty much every post they make. It’s crazy to me some of them have the willpower to continue creating and posting because i sure wouldn’t.
This meme is selling shovels, and the comments here are more than happy to dig holes it seems.
People are reenacting the point of the comic in real time, it’s wild.
Can’t imagine why Lemmy is like this after carefully selecting the most opinionated Redditors for its community.
If it helps, I have no opinions. I’m just chaotic stupid alognment.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Ricky Rogatoni, you dispense the sage advice of a fool. As a self-identifying fool I always appreciate your input.
It does help, thank you.
I hope that poor woman takes something for that terrible cold she has.
I’ve noticed this an uncomfortable amount on Lemmy. Being trans, I’ve started bringing up my pretransition experience/traumas living as a dude even if it’s not relevant whenever I talk about a women’s issue that effects me because I don’t get taken seriously otherwise.
Well, actually, lately I’ve taken up just not talking about women’s issues, and really just commenting less frequently over all, because this whole place is like a mine field of people who just wanna argue. Every time before I hit send I have to think “Is somebody gonna think this is about them and get pissed with me?” And 99% of the time the answer is yes.Pshhhh, noone here is going to argue with you. You’re wrong /s
Seriously though, sorry the internet is full of hatefull people. Thank you for what you have shared in the past. Some of us do benefit from hearing other people’s struggles, but just don’t comment as much. Negative engagement usually outweighs positive engagement on all social media platforms.
I know I’m just one person, but your experiences are important and imo, necessary for women’s liberation (and human liberation more generally). I’m not going to say “you should share your experiences” because I get how exhausting it is to be challenged on basic shit all the time and that means commenting can be akin to self harm if overdone. I guess I’m just trying to expand that 1% of non-assholes into a larger percentage.
I say this as a cis woman whose feminism has gotten a hell of a lot more intersectional in recent years, in part due to trans friends. Knowing trans women in particular has helped me to feel more at home and happy in my own gender (femininity and its relationship with womanhood is complicated). Having lived as a guy for a chunk of your life no doubt means that your lived experience (especially with respect to gender) is messy and complex, but that’s great, because the world is messy and complex. At least, it would be great, if more people were open to listening to you when you share. I’m sorry that you have to do the cost:benefit analysis before commenting — that part is something I can relate to.
I’m sorry you had to deal with that lemmy is definitely a bit more wild in terms of strong opinions, some very cool people on here but also a lot of immaturity.
I’m not trans but isn’t that a normal thing to think before posting? I’m fine with saying to my friends “(wo)men have hurt me in the past, and it makes me less trustful of them” but I wouldn’t comment that publicly, since either I get weirdos saying “yeah I hate (wo)men too” or weirdos saying “the other sex does this but worse!” Either way they don’t get what I mean, so I’m going to be very careful with qualifying what I say. It’s a hot-button topic and it sucks I have to do that just to share an experience, but a lot of people are sensitive (myself included) to perceived attacks. I still get people misunderstanding it, but that’s usually 1/100 instead of 1/5. It sucks that it doesn’t feel like a group of friends, but there are a lot of communities on lemmy that will ban people acting like jerks (lemmy.blahaj.zone for one)
I suppose I just had higher expectations for Lemmy tbh. When I first joined on the first instance I found, the community was so nice, supportive, and in general just an amazing place to be where it felt like anybody could have a reasonable discussion about anything. It just really, really quickly devolved into what every other social media site is.
I did find using the app Connect to block lemmy.world where I assume most of the most toxic people land purely on account of its size instantly reduced toxicity in my feed by a massive amount, but it also unfortunately blocks half the content on the site and I also don’t like that I have to block plenty of reasonable users as collateral to achieve it.
Honestly, I agree men’s issues do need to be seriously discussed, but it’s wrong to hijack discussion about women’s issues to talk about men’s issues. The reverse is also true.
That’s the problem… When is it time to talk about men’s issues? Specifically, in a group that doesn’t listen to Peterson and Andrew Tate
I agree with what you said, but I think the solution is to talk about everyone’s issues instead of men’s issues. Men’s issues aren’t about the men, they’re about how men relate to others.
Women’s issues should have their place, but men don’t need the same thing… Instead they need everyone to show up and talk about their own issues
I’ve actually seen the opposite happen more often than the former. Both online and irl. A guy starts complaining about things and a cacophony of women show up to tell him how he’ll never understand what it’s like to be a woman.
Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that’s said is “there’s a time and a place to talk about men’s issues” but like when is it then?
Yeah I really don’t see the situation in the comic often at all. I won’t say it doesn’t happen, but I’ve personally witnessed way more of this reactionary diversion when men are discussing their unique issues.
You are showing exactly the behaviour that the meme is criticising.
No they’re not. The OP’s comic explicitly raised the comparison.
Both scenarios are possible and it is shitty to use whataboutism in both scenarios.
Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that’s said is “there’s a time and a place to talk about men’s issues” but like when is it then?
When it’s not being used as a whataboutism.
When it’s not being used as a whataboutism.
Ever seen a discussion about men complaining that they are assumed to be a threat just for being male get derailed by comments that it isn’t a problem worth complaining about compared to women’s issues? Or when the topic of how sexual abuse of boys is extremely common gets derailed as not really being an issue and dismissed by crime stats that often exclude non-penatrating sexual assaults?
Yes it sucks when whataboutism is used to dismiss complaints, but it is also frustrating that the same whataboutism is used to silence discussion that is about the issues that men face.
Ever seen a discussion about men complaining that they are assumed to be a threat just for being male get derailed by comments that it isn’t a problem worth complaining about compared to women’s issues?
No I haven’t ever seen that. But that would be an example of whataboutism so pretty shitty thing to say.
Or when the topic of how sexual abuse of boys is extremely common gets derailed as not really being an issue and dismissed by crime stats that often exclude non-penatrating sexual assaults?
No I haven’t ever seen thing either but again that is dismissive and a terrible way to invalidate a legitimate problem.
Yes it sucks when whataboutism is used to dismiss complaints, but it is also frustrating that the same whataboutism is used to silence discussion that is about the issues that men face.
So you feel whataboutism/dismissive responses are only used against men? Or do you agree that that is not a good way to respond to legitimate issues regardless of gender?
So feel whataboutism/dismissive responses are only used against men? Or do you agree that that is not a good way to respond to legitimate issues regardless of gender?
I am saying whataboutism is to commonly used to dismiss both men’s and women’s issues and it sucks in both cases.
Agreed
So you feel whataboutism/dismissive responses are only used against men? Or do you agree that that is not a good way to respond to legitimate issues regardless of gender?
They’re agreeing with you it seems to me, and sharing their anecdotes that despite that reality which they agree with, let me re-emphasize that, despite that reality (that using one gender’s struggles to whatabout another’s is considered both ineffective and borders on conflict-seeking, inherently), that in their experience, they have seen the same the same whatabout tactics used to dismantle discussion when a “male centric” issue is the discussion catalyst, as when it’s a “female centric” issue originating the discourse.
I can’t speak for that other commenter to your follow up question though, so I’ll answer it for myself: I do not feel that whataboutism/dismissive responses are only used against men, no.
As a matter of fact, I feel that they’re employed more often to stiffle discussions on “woman centric” concerns precisely because of how little Men’s issues are discussed, and the reason for both is the same. That this is a side effect of the patriarchal systems in place doesn’t absolve either side from the requirement to be genuine if genuine discourse is sought, though.
I have seen what the commenter is mentioning and right here on Lemmy to boot. Because whether male or female, a whatabout is an easy rhetorical blanket to reach for, and many do.
I believe that both genders (including and specially men, who must own up to the fact that collectively we’re the gender with the greater frequency of offense against other genders if we’re ever going to get to addressing why it’s the same systemic patriarchal roots binding women’s rights that choke out the existence of men’s rights issues) have to be willing to communicate.
Women in aggregate are crying to be heard, but “TooManyMen” aren’t listening that they’re (women) speaking for them both too, and I feel those men who are able to hear some of that message need to help out in stopping the whataboutism wall in their brothers before they get going…
The same way that I believe there’s women who need to do the same for many of their sisters in the public square.
Divided is how we’ve gotten to this, unapologetically more viscerally dangerous for womanhood world that pretty much always has been, but I feel that it is united that we’ll reach any dreams of equity or widespread understanding between the genders, if we ever will.
In short, I agree “that that [whataboutism tainting discourse] is not a good way to respond to legitimate issues regardless of gender”, but the mere axiomatic observation falls short of the next step:
Both sides need to acknowledge and give each other the room to voice out their feelings, views, ideas, etc, genuinely (trolls and agitators need not be entertained) while still keeping an eye for the possibility that unity lies not in knowing the correct answer but in the shared questioning.
Fellas let’s do (and encourage our brothers to) better whether we think it’s fair or not, and ladies, understand (and share with the sisters who it’s safe to) that a hypocrite and someone whose barriers are breaking will appear briefly as the same before change is undergone.
there’s a time and a place to talk about men’s issues" but like when is it then?
Not when women are discussing theirs. It’s that simple.
It’s like you didn’t even read their comment.
It is very possible I misread it, my bad.
Man just going for irony right away, eh?
Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that’s said is “there’s a time and a place to talk about men’s issues” but like when is it then?
Probably not in the thread with the comic about womens issues being talked over by men, like you’re doing now, would be a good choice.
EDIT: I’ll eat the downvotes. Just wanted to say how embarrassing it is to be a man and hear ‘but what about men’s issues?’ used in a non-ironic way. Sorry ladies, you don’t deserve this crap. Also thanks for being the bulwark against fascism.
You are showing exactly the behaviour that the meme is criticising.
Go start your own thread then if it’s important to you. That’s the whole point, don’t hijack the conversation. Sucks when it happens to you, don’t do it to other people as revenge.
I agree with this and I’d also add that bringing up men’s issues to try to silence discussion of women’s issues then harms men as well because people associate discussion of men’s issues with that type of shit behaviour.
Twitter normalized of extremely simplistic expression of complicated issues which leads to all kinds of kneejerk reactions. Some men misinterpret whatever complaint as being about them and turn defensive, and of course the most aggressive of those voices are amplified by social media. The inflammatory comments beget more inflammatory comments, reasonable people quickly exit the space and this is what you end up with.
I firmly believe it’s social media that’s to blame.
For sure social medias are a big part of it.
I understand that “all men are trash” and the likes are generalizations about men, not me specifically. But when you see these lines make rounds and rounds again, it can makes you question yourself even if you’ve done nothing wrong. And that’s a big hit to self-esteem and anxiety.
Some men misinterpret whatever complaint as being about them
I think that’s reasonable if the complaint is about men in general, or specifically calls out all men.
I’d like to, whenever possible, move away from women’s issues or men’s issues towards people’s issues.
It’s a good thing to do that, but some issues really are heavily affected by gender
You worded that better than I could, well done.
