I mean, I hate BlueSky too, but I think the reason it’s more popular than Mastodon is that it’s more centralized and in practical terms that means it’s easier to adopt and engage with.
The biggest headache I have with Mastodon (and Lemmy, to a lesser extent) is defederation. I understand it’s the most practical thing to do sometimes, but it’s waaay overdone. Like, there needs to be a culture of only defederating as a last resort due to pratical concerns (e.g. bots I guess). Unfortunately the current culture is one where many instance admins treat defederation as a personal blocklist. I wish more admins would leave it to individual users to decide who to allow or not.
When you sign up with Bluesky, it gives you the choice to sign up with the big main server or with an auxiliary server. Just like Lemmy does.
The problem is that when Lemmy got hit with a big influx of users, the main server couldn’t handle the load, so they quit accepting new users. This confused and upset a lot of people, because now they had to go shopping for another instance to apply to, and many of the bigger ones weren’t accepting new users, either, because of the same problem. This was a crucial moment for the adoption of the platform, and the infrastructure just wasn’t there to handle it.
EDIT: Shit, I think I’m misremembering that. That’s what happened with Mastodon. Although, it could’ve happened with Lemmy, too. In fact, it’s a problem with all of these social networks that aren’t run by gigantic corporations. People expect a certain level of service, and you can’t provide that unless you have a ton of money.
I never had a Xitter account so take what I say with a grain of salt, as I only interacted with the platform as a spectator.
For me it was funny to watch as I slowly saw people dive into madness over the most irrelevant things.
It didn’t matter if it was left or right people still lost all senses over unimportant things like Hunter Biden’s laptop or this week’s conspiracy theory.
I opened Mastodon and as I scroll through I see the following order:
- republican bad post
- republican bad post
- republican bad post
- something linux related (usually hector martin)
- republican bad post
And I get it, republican is bad, but after reading 3-4 republic bad posts my mental state needs a break or something different which is what Xitter was able to do. Some new music being announced/discussed, maybe a video game, maybe a joke.
BS suffers from the same issue, no variation in the content is what makes me not want to partake.
I personally think that the problem is rooted in defederation, it’s being used willy-nilly like it doesn’t have effect on the people using the platform. But not becoming an echo chamber is essential to a platform’s long term health. If I know that a platform has the same message for me when I open the app I’ll just start using it less, which is what happened with Lemmy sadly, I open my feed and it’s full of dystopian and republican posts, I just don’t bother anymore.
Incoherent rant over.
Your rant is 100% sensible and/or valid and/or based or whatever one says these days.
If a user wants their own echo chamber, let them cultivate it themselves. The hosts should not decide for them, and the choice to defederate should be based on practical/material/legal concerns only.
I think you need to curate your feeds better. My experience doesn’t match yours.
BS suffers from the same issue, no variation in the content is what makes me not want to partake.
Isn’t the whole thing about BlueSky that your feed is your feed though? You actively select and curate what you want. So if you want new music, games, comedy - follow new music, games, and comedy. Sure, those accounts might then post other things sometimes, but by and large, that’s my understanding of BSky.
In the first paragraph I mentioned that I don’t have an account, I never had one on Xitter mastodon or BS. That’s my point of view, and from what it seems it’s always politics.
I haven’t used Mastodon, but if it’s anything like Lemmy, most people won’t want to bother learning what an instance is or what federation means.
FOSS enthusiasts regularly overestimate how much hassle regular people are willing to put up with to do something, and how much they care about corporations.
To me the biggest issue with federated platforms is defederation: deliberately breaking interoperability.
Like, imagine if email servers (the original federated network) blocked whole domains as aggressively Mastodon or even Lemmy servers do? It never would have worked.
most people won’t want to bother learning what an instance is or what federation means.
What have you seen that convinced you of this? Has this been studied?
They planned ahead to make it popular, twitter developed it while losing money, my conspiracy theory is their goal was always to transition to bluesky since its model is more sustainable for long term control
That isn’t a conspiracy theory. That was, in fact, the original plan. Jack Dorsey explicitly stated this from the outset. However, due to reasons (Wikipedia doesn’t go into specifics), the project lead decided to make Bluesky independent from Twitter. When Musk bought Twitter, he severed all ties.
When I first got a Bluesky account, back when it was invite-only a whole bunch of the Physicists and Astronomers I used to follow on Twitter were already there. If anything it seemed like scientists were early adopters.
Sort of like how they moved out of Florida and Texas. Repubs want a brain drain for some reason.
What we need are good algorithms
What does this mean? “Good” how?
Well, in the sense that it shows you the posts you want to see, like X or many other websites that are based on recommendations
They show you the posts that are most likely to drive engagement and keep you on the site, e.g. outrage bait. Whether or not that is good is, of course, a matter of opinion, but I think it is bad. Doomscrolling is much like gambling. Most of the time you spend doing it, you feel either angry or sad, but you’re addicted to that occasional hit of dopamine you get.
Good. Sucks that it took open fascism to get that to happen, but at least it happened.
Agreed, at least it’s happening with Meta too.
I feel like scientists should move towards open source solutions … I feel like most scientists are smart enough to launch a mastodon server, but well.
Never worked in academia eh? Plenty of dumb (and, more importantly here, computer illiterate) people there too.
I’m pretty sure there are a handful of technically literate scientists who are able to install servers lmao.
Most scientists aren’t allowed to do stuff like that, or purely just don’t have the time.
Or know how. Just because they are scientists doesn’t mean that they are necessarily particularly computer literate. I once had to explain to a university professor that wireless electricity doesn’t exist, and the Wi-Fi is only for internet. So yeah.
I mean, wireless electricity tech does exist, it just sucks and is horribly inefficient at any reasonable distance.
Well there’s two possible implementations of wireless power transfer.
There’s the way we use to charge our phones, Which is just an electromagnetic effect with no real way to extend its range. That technology has progressed as far as it’s ever going to get.
The other way is through power beaming using infrared lasers and special crystals. That technology does have potential but is nowhere close to being consumer ready yet. One day a router may include both features but not today and certainly not in 2016 when this happened.
People have been able to extend the electromagnetic effect to a few feet, but yeah, there’s a reason why most just use the close range version we have today.
Here’s a demo from 2009: https://youtu.be/MgBYQh4zC2Y
Microwave transmission has also been explored in addition to lasers, as you say, but either way both methods involve power loss in energy conversion, and they both are very directional, making it impractical for consumer use.
But anyway, just wanted to say that the tech technically exists since it’s funny when normal people bring it up without knowing the limitations of current technology and physics.
What… Are you taking about? I know hundreds of scientists and the vast majority of them interact with social media just as much as normal people.
I’d reckon that managing a social media server is more involved than just using social media.
Using social media is far removed from operating your own publicly available social media server.
This coming from someone who is trying to get more mastodon usage in higher ed. Profs aren’t the ones who operate these things. Merely getting the approval to get the project started is an immense task.
University IT departments don’t want to be running some random Mastodon on the server anyway. It’s got nothing to do with the universities day-to-day operations it’s just an extra thing that would be required on top of what they already do.
Also the only university professors who would actually be able to run the server themselves will be those in the computer science domain. A biologist isn’t going to know how to do it any more than any random member of the public.
My question was about the “scientists are not allowed to” part. I’ve never heard to such restrictions, and been in the field for more than a decade.
Any public facing IT system stood up in the higher ed system I am familiar with, requires IT support to be engaged. A part of that process is sending the request through a software review board, department’s IT, centralized IT, and then assigned to a project manager.
Otherwise, it would be considered a rogue service, and turned off at the edge, and core routers.
Right, but why would a scientist set up a mastodon server within their work place? If I were to do it (and I did set up a diaspora instance back in the day), it would be off my own bat, not on work machines.
If I wanted my workplace to do it, that would be a different story, and I’d argue for it to be done by the IT team…
Why would a geologist spin up a Mastodon server, period? Or any other kind of social media server?
And when is the next circle jerk about how making an account on the Fediverse is too complicated for “normal people?”
Being a scientist doesn’t mean you have the technical knowledge to run a public facing server.
Being a scientist kinda means to me you’re able to follow a very easy to understand guide to install mastodon on …
while I agree, the reality of the situation is that when you get down to comparing feature to feature, open source solutions tend to be technically inferior to proprietary ones.
I use linux because I hate microsoft, not because it’s more feature complete than windows (it isn’t).
I use lemmy because I hate u/spez, not because it’s more feature complete than reddit (it isn’t).
I use blender because it’s free and it’s actually kinda great, if all free and open source software was like blender, then it would be a no-brainer to use FOSS all of the time, and it would be easy to convince the normies to do the same.
also also
I’m using linux mint, i have minor complaints about it, but nothing worse than what microsoft is currently doing with windows. It’s just different, and that bothers me. middle click paste is the bane of my existence, but other people swear by it. Just before I switched over, I learned about windows 10’s built in emoji keyboard, and I really liked that. A year later (literally last week) I discovered a program that does most of what the windows emoji thingy did, and I can manually edit a keybind for the function to accomplish amost the same thing. FOSS, yay, it’s free if you don’t value your time in currency amounts. FOSS could be so good if only it were good.
while I agree, the reality of the situation is that when you get down to comparing feature to feature, open source solutions tend to be technically inferior to proprietary ones.
Yes. But there is nothing bluesky does that mastodon doesn’t. It’s a platform to write short text posts and have it viewed by other people. It’s not rocket science.
Bluesky is open source though
Some of us have. There are a few science focused servers.
Going to play devil’s advocate here.
Bluesky is just…better than any Fediverse microblogging platform. In terms of UI, discoverability, and keeping a balance of users in the community.
Mastodon sucks for regular people. And none of the other better platforms like Firefish ever gain enough steam to beat Mastodon because of existing issues in the structure of the Fediverse and ActivityPub (this also includes Mastodon itself to an extent).
Mastodon is great.
The only reason why it doesn’t get as much traction is because it doesn’t manipulate your dopamine and serotonin receptors like other networks do with their black box algorithms that are designed to steal as much of your attention as possible, while almost certainly throwing you into an unhealthy filterbubble/echochamber.
That is also true to Bluesky, and to a lesser extent, even for the Lemmy-Reddit divide. I’ve seen people leaving the alternative platforms for the mainstream ones, because the alternative ones “didn’t made them stay as long”. For me, being less addictive was part of the reason why I prefer the alt platforms, although with reddit, I had to browse through a lot of garbage already, long before the API drama.
Because Bluesky keeps to what made Twitter popular in the first place. The UX. You make a post and its syndicated to a federated feed that anyone can search for, and you can tag content using hashtags.
It’s a great concept. There’s a reason a lot of people use it.
what are those?
existing issues in the structure of the Fediverse and ActivityPub
The other issue is, nobody is trying to take on Facebook. Not really anything in the FLOSS community like it.
I believe you’ve hit the nail on the head, the only people I’ve noticed that really want such a social media account are generally people who were older than millennial, out of Millennials, gen Z and gen A, I don’t really see much interest in a social media account that is directly linked to your actual identity. Most of them are more interested in a pseuado-anonymous style account that only asks for a username and doesn’t actually link you to a real world identity.
Facebook was great in principle, it was intended as like a college student community and evolved from there, it was never meant to fill the goal of what the platform is doing today.
As such as Facebook deteriorates, there isn’t a huge demand for a Facebook alternative, because the people who are leaving the platform aren’t actively seeking to replace what is lost.
There’s a couple contenders but they’re not very good. I think most FOSS people don’t WANT a facebook alternative; they’d prefer to keep their IRL identity separate from the internet. And the people who don’t care also don’t care enough to want to go federated.
There’s spacehey as a myspace alternative though. That’s pretty neat but it’s full of teenagers unfortunately.
Friendica aims at that. I’m not sure about the results as I haven’t tried it.
It still needs polish, but the biggest deficit is lack of adoption.
Platforms like Twitter encourage casual breaks between public and private space, but Facebook-like platforms are better for passively extending existing friendship circles. Or so it seems to me.
Diaspora, too, but I’m not sure how active that project is nowadays.
Would be better if it was Mastodon, but I suppose I shouldn’t let perfect be the enemy of good, and good riddance to Twitter, indeed.
While there has been some onboarding QOL stuff for mastodon, Bluesky still has them beat on that.
The “People” segment in the explore menu is a nice start, but it’s still dependent on the users picking a server that somewhat matches their interests.
thing is lot of that is on purpose. mastodon and fediverse are more of an attempt to come back to the state where there is no algorithm picking for you… but too many people nowdays are simply too lazy to search and actively choose what they want to see.
what we really need is to separate content (keep that in fediverse) and content access and presentation (the interface people use to access the content). if you want a bot feeding you content whole day and for your internet to become a tv you nobody can stop you. but if you want to think amd search nobody should stop you either
Same here, well said. Bluesky’s not perfect, at least it’s not Twitter. I wish more people would use it though
Cool. I’m going out on a limb and saying Bluesky seems pretty based so far. I made an account when it was announced, and it’s pretty cool. Nice app, seemingly good mission statement.
I don’t want to dismiss something until it actually turns to shit. If it’s good now, I’ll use it now. When it turns to crap, I’ll just jump off. I’ll always have Lemmy and Mastodon as my mains, so I don’t see the harm personally. 🤷♂️ Let’s just hope it’ll last for the scientists’ sake.
How many times can people keep making the same mistake without us concluding they’re stupid? Closed corporate social networks ALWAYS go to shit. Enshitification is inevitable. And you’ll have the sunk cost fallacy stopping them from leaving, until they all finally get fed up and switch again. Own your network - stop swapping.
But we did leave and if (or when) it becomes enshitified, we will move again. We don’t need an idealised platform, we just want something easy to use which doesn’t (yet) have the baggage and culture of twiXer
But we did leave…
…about a decade too late.
But we did leave
Who is we?
From what I can find Twitter has around 500 million users monthly, meanwhile Bluesky has less than 30 million total users… I’ve seen public figures who are outspoken against Trump and Musk, some who even called them Nazis, still using twitter but not Bluesky or Mastodon. And I even see people on Lemmy post screenshots from Twiiter posts.
So, clearly, the vast majority of people have not left, and those who did are just going for another centralized platform that is likely to suffer from the same problems as Twitter in the future. And all this about a decade too late, as another user said.
Sorry, should have clarified - I was speaking on the part of many academics. In my department, most people (faculty) have abandoned Twitter and a fair few have started on bluesky although more just don’t use the format in any context anymore. I only know of one who uses Mastadoon.
Scientists should consult tech people about stuff like this just like we should consult scientists for science stuff. Unfortunately a lot of tech people also aren’t conscious of this stuff either.
They gotta get their news out to the masses, at least they choose something besides twitter.
There’s no excuse for using Xittter in 2025.
Why switch to BlueSky if you have Mastodon…
I’m on both and Mastodon is missing (at least in any easy to use way) most of the features that make Bluesky such a good destination:
- instant add subscribe lists
- subscribable block lists
- custom feeds/subscribable algorithms
- keyword/topic blocks
- nuclear block where you never see the blocked person again
- optional discover feed
- DM preferences
All these things (and more I’m sure I’m forgetting), make Bluesky very quick to get started with and very powerful for honing your feeds to be exactly how you want and free of harassment and trolling.
I am still trying with Mastodon, but it’s really slow going and I can fully understand why people wouldn’t bother. After a year I am way behind where I was in a week with Bluesky.
Thanks for the list! As someone who has never used any Twitter-like site before (I guess microblog is the right term…?), and recently made a profile on Bluesky only to support it (I have used it briefly ~3 times since joining): what are the pros of Mastodon that Bluesky doesn’t have?
As far as I can tell, the advantages of Mastodon over Bluesky are:
- Well implemented federation
Haha, thanks! I know it’s quite important for a good bunch of people here (on a federated site), but I guess I’ll stick with Bluesky then. Thanks for the insights! : )
It’s important because, along with the ability to migrate accounts, it prevents/deters enshittification. In betting Bluesky will hit that wall in the next few years (I’m guessing they’ll never properly implement federation).
Yeah I agree that we will probably happen, but the problem is using Mastodon is such a pain for the vast majority of people, it’s not worth the hassle.
And I say that to someone who uses both platforms.
I know; as much as I love the concept, I can already see .world soaking up most of the users, which might not be the best thing for federation - but TBF when I came over from Reddit, my main goal was to find something decent and similar, and federation was secondary at best for me; so I’ll see if it gets any worse, but for the moment, the first list definitely overweighs the second “list” for me.
- No “starter kits” which are just positive-feedback loops for popular accounts
- No “algorithm” which promotes popularity or engagement over quality or relevance
Bluesky’s main feed is totally algorithm free, it’s just the people you follow’s posts in chronological order, same as mastodon.
Starter kits are optional, but they allow you to get started in hours rather than months. For me, they made the difference between a vibrant and interesting feed well tailored towards my interests, and a very sparse feed that I didn’t use on Mastodon. For me they were the difference between a useful social network and a non-useful one.
Main one is that it doesn’t manipulate your feed with stuff “you might enjoy” so you can’t be easily manipulated by the people setting the algorithm. Of course, this is exactly why people find it hard. People want to be fed stuff and told what to consume.
This one is so important. After a year my mastodon feed is perfectly tailored for me. When I open it I enjoy my time there and the posts I see. I can leave whenever I want, and without a feel of rage or anxiety. But the most important part is that I don’t feel the compulsive need to open it every other second. It’s to liberating in contrast with the algorithm led manipulation.
Bluesky also has the option of doing this, or not.
Do you refer to the “Following” Vs “Discover” feed?
Apparently it’s very noticeable when a post hits the discover feed. The quality of responses dives off a cliff.
There’s a new option available now for reply controls, you can limit it to just people who follow you. While it’s a very low bar, it’s enough of a threshold for most randoms to not bother following just to reply to you
And even without that, I still have felt that the quality of replies doesn’t drop THAT much one it hits Discover - but it may be partly who I follow/am recommended, that block lists are doing a great job of eliminating trolls+spam, and I just automatically ignore any stupid/low effort stuff (“wow you are the best at that thing you posted about”, “that js amazjng i have never seen a linux before” or whatever).
This option will only help, though.
That’s not really a fair description of what’s going on.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a recommendation algorithm, can you imagine trying to use Netflix if it didn’t tell you about any of the shows and you just have to guess and type in a film in order to see if it existed?
The problem with algorithms is when they’re the only option, or when they are invisible and you think you are getting a timeline of people you’ve subscribed to, but really you’re getting an algorithm optimizing retention. As long as it’s just recommending stuff there’s nothing wrong with it, in fact as a lot of people point out, it’s kind of necessary.
The world functioned before recommendation algorithms. Even the internet did. Once upon a time, when Goggle worked, it didn’t modify its results based on your history.
Netflix could operate fine with classifications, ratings good tagging and search. It doesn’t need to monitor your viewing habits and recommend something based on them.
Yes but it would be more irritating to use than without which is my point.
The world function perfectly well without electricity but I don’t think anyone is seriously suggesting that we go back to a pre-electrified age just because technically it’s possible.
It does have keyword blocking.
Not sure what nuclear block means but I can’t think of any way a blocked person could be seen again. It even has above nuclear blocking where you block their entire server.
It has custom feeds but the implementation with lists is very fiddly and I wish it would be improved.
There is a trending posts section but I think you want a personalised discover feed? Which will never happen of course.
Thanks for the update. Yes the recommended feed is personalized. It’s optional. The main feed has no algorithm, just who you follow.
Keyword blocking is a bit more sophisticated on Bluesky I think as they have a crowdsourced tagging system which allows you to opt in an out also of tagged words regardless of whether they appear in the body of the post.
The tagging sounds great. One of the problems with masto is showing the hashtags in the body making posts that use them look awful, and of course being entirely set by the author
Yeah it makes it look like a 4chan post.
Yes the recommended feed is personalized. It’s optional. The main feed has no algorithm, just who you follow.
The thing is, a lot of social media sites have or had this. YouTube has the subscriptions feed. Twitter has (I don’t know anymore) a following feed. Reddit used to keep posts on your homepage only being from subscribed subreddits.
One problem. People don’t use them. They see maintaining subscriptions as work and so want to be fed posts by algorithm.
Been watching @TechConnectify 's latest?! He has some interesting stats on the subscriptions feed on YT in there - and yes, it’s shockingly low.
I think people want plug and play. Maintaining subs isn’t work as such after you’ve set it up, but it does take that initial setup. https://youtu.be/QEJpZjg8GuABeen watching @TechConnectify 's latest?!
Yes. Yes I have.
I use them. I use platforms more that have them. I leave platforms that don’t.
But to each their own I guess.
I’ve seen a few larger creators say the reply management is bad at scale, too. The thing I mostly like is that here I am, reading Lemmy from Mastodon.
Yeah I’d prefer Mastodon to implement all these features and win, but I understand why it’s not winning ATM.
Same. Plus I came back here because Bluesky got too noisy so I’m kind of happy if it stays small!
Lemmy is still my favorite, I was never a huge fan of the Twitter model, but I enjoy taking part in the destruction of X.
over time I’ll probably end up moving over to Lemmy tbh. I think I’d prefer more of a forum vibe. I was never a Redditor so I didn’t “get” it until I started following Lemmy feeds.
In a word, audience. I’d prefer it if everyone went with Mastodon, but the audience on BlueSky is orders of magnitude bigger. I cross post to both, but only because I don’t trust BlueSky not to do exactly what Twitter and Meta have done eventually.
They might do the Twitter. Jack Dorsey has already left the board saying exactly that.
Cause the name is hard to remember… I was trying to yesterday and the closest I could get is megatron and megalodon
It’s a big elephant and you send “Toots!”.
How do you confused that with a cynical robot and a giant shark? You’d post “Quips!” or “Bites!”. Wouldn’t work at all. 🙄
“Bites” is so cool…
I tried masterdon, mostertant (I don’t know what that one is) and eventually needed to look up the name from an E-Mail…
The name should have been MinBB (Mastadon is not Blue Bird).
Guess why? /s For real, people, some of you live in a bubble…
I think there’s a fairly serious problem for large accounts on mastodon but I will never have one so I can’t quite understand it myself.
Something like dealing with replies / scolds without spending all day blocking is too hard. It doesn’t help that “no algorithm” means “show first reply at the top” so quick replies can dominate comments.
The bit I don’t understand is why this is fine on blue sky. Is it just different users? I can’t quite believe that but I can’t see why blue sky would be less annoying.
It’s not that it’s less annoying, it’s that it was in the right place at the right time to capture sufficient network effect…
There’s plenty of people on masto saying they have accounts on both but prefer bsky due to difficulty managing replies.
As I say I don’t really understand it but it’s a real thing big accounts experience.
Why switch to Mastodon when there is Misskey?
Why use Misskey when there is Hubzilla?
I’ve yet to find a multi language or English speaking misskey it appears they’re all Japanese
You could spin one up this evening if you wanted. Or go use catodon.social.
That’s not the point. The point is, there are reasons Mastodon is being rejected, just like there are reasons you seemingly cannot pay people to use a Misskey-based or Hubzilla-based website.
It’s not where the people are going, and the public or semi-public figures are going to follow the people.
Gotta try the Misskey forks for English
These who waited until the X take over to move away are simply following trends.
oof. blue sky was created by the guy who made twitter wasn’t it? if he sells to the next bond villain, blue sky will just become twitter 2.0.
open source, decentralized.
i have accepted that most of the internet will be a vicious cycle of enshittification. go to cool new site, site gets too popular for its own good, monetization kicks in, site now sucks, rinse and repeat.
FOSS stuff like lemmy and mastodon will never get past the first step, which is fine. they will just occupy a separate niche.
FOSS stuff like lemmy and mastodon will never get past the first step, which is fine. they will just occupy a separate niche.
I wouldn’t say never, but fedverse projects will need to find ways to smooth off the rough edges. Also the more enshittifcation happens the more I think people will be willing and able to get past the rough edges. If any one of the services breaks through and becomes mainstream, it’ll provide a roadmap to success for other services and people will be more comfortable with the concepts.
Yes but it’s also a good sign that he left the project some time ago. He’s all about NOSTR now.
The thing is, bluesky is just old twitter, it will become X eventually…Bluesky sucks, but jessus, mastodon sucks in terms of usability. Its only for technical people and experience on mastodon is fatal compared to bluesky, sad that mastodon won’t take over, as it could…at least bluesky is not bad YET.
Bluesky is more popular because it has VC money behind it.
I would prefer any ActivityPub instance, but press media (and in general private entities), to which scientific institutes intend diffusion, is moving to bluesky…
