Oh fuck off on this one, Joe.
What exactly did you think would happen when you went on tv and announced that we would completely back Israel no matter what they did?
You expected restraint from an apartheid government in a blood rage?
Don’t play dumb.
So god damned stupid/malicious. Both him and the majority of Europe it seems said something to the like off: Israel are allowed to defend themselves. Defend themselves on Palestinian land. With weapons sold by us. And now we “encourage” restraint, like Israel has ever done that when it comes to civilians. They are more than happy to bomb the women and children being used as shields by Hamad.
I’m not surprised by the US response. They did basically the exact same thing with Iraq/Afghanistan after 9/11.
US military advisors also have been directly helping the IDF plan the invasion into Gaza. He’s definitely trying to play dumb, probably because there’s actual backlash to this stuff that’s reaching the mainstream. Like, when you get Wolf Blitzer of all people stunned speechless on live TV at the IDF justification for striking a refugee camp, you know it’s out of hand over there.
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Wait what happened with Wolf Blitzer?
He was interviewing an IDF Lt Col about the initial bombing of the refugee camp. He was pushing about if the IDF didn’t care about the civilian casualties and looked rather taken aback after several attempts to push for a straight answer the only one he got was that “This is the tragedy of war.”
went on tv and announced that we would completely back Israel no matter what they did?
That never happened. In fact, a few days after the attack by Hamas, Biden warned Israel to follow the rules of war.
(postscript : I don’t think Biden wanted to see the tit-for-tat atrocities from Israel, I think he has recoiled and is trying to put a lid on it now. But the speech was a major and foreseeable fuckup on the practical and moral levels)
So here’s the bit talking about restraint:
We also discussed how democracies like Israel and the United States are stronger and more secure when we act according to the rule of law.
Terrorists purpo- — purposefully target civilians, kill them. We uphold the laws of war — the law of war. It matters. There’s a difference.
The rest is a lot like this
So, in this moment, we must be crystal clear: We stand with Israel. We stand with Israel. And we will make sure Israel has what it needs to take care of its citizens, defend itself, and respond to this attack.
And let there be no doubt: The United States has Israel’s back.
We’re — we’re with Israel. Let’s make no mistake.
Interpretations can differ, but on balance I can easily understand why Bibi (correctly) interpreted that as a blank check. Yeah maybe we’d tut-tut and furrow our brow, but the guns and bombs are gonna flow regardless.
First of all, Biden hasn’t sent any weapons to Israel since October 7. And he’s not planning to send “guns and bombs”, he is asking Congress for anti-missile systems accompanied by humanitarian aid for Gaza. Which I think is appropriate.
Second, I don’t think Bibi interpreted that as a blank check. I think Bibi is an idiot who doesn’t care what Biden thinks. In a follow-up speech on 10/19, Biden had much more to say:
President Netanyahu and I discussed again, yesterday, the critical need for Israel to operate by the laws of war. That means protecting civilians in combat as best as they can. The people of Gaza urgently need food, water and medicine. …
As I said in Israel, as hard as it is, we cannot give up on peace. We cannot give up on a two-state solution. Israel and Palestinians equally deserve to live in safety, dignity and peace. …
When I was in Israel yesterday, I said that when America experienced the hell of 9/11, we felt enraged as well, and while we sought and got justice, we made mistakes. So I caution the government of Israel not to be blinded by rage.
However, Israel is a sovereign country and unfortunately isn’t taking orders from the US. The US is trying its usual approach of attempting to bribe a foreign government into better behavior, but success is hardly guaranteed.
How dare you come in here with your facts! /s
(Thanks)
First of all, Biden hasn’t sent any weapons to Israel since October 7.
They’ve definitely sent ammunition.
What are the rules of war against a prison camp? We could perhaps consult the Federal Bureau of Prisons manual, but I did not find the word “war” in it. Unfortunately, I don’t read Hebrew, so I came up blank there too.
Not sure what you’re referring to, but rules of war do not prohibit prison camps.
No, they’re (correctly) saying that Gaza itself is a prison camp.
Maybe it is, but that’s that doesn’t violate rules of war.
The sad fact is that the rules of war permit a lot of awful things, because war is intrinsically awful.
No no they’re being sarcastic. They’re asking what the rules of war say about going to war with a prison camp.
Fair enough! Thanks for explaining!
And did he make good on that warning?
Well, there has certainly been a change in tone from the US, with new calls for a pause in fighting. And this is likely to affect the shape of the current aid package.
But Israel is ultimately a sovereign country. Biden doesn’t support Israel unconditionally as some have accused, but he also can’t force Israel to do what he wants.
And this is likely to affect the shape of the current aid package.
So what exactly will it include if not weapons?
Biden doesn’t support Israel unconditionally as some have accused, but he also can’t force Israel to do what he wants.
He actually can. Reagan did it in the 80s.
Your head is so far up your ass. It’s obvious you are not commenting in good faith.
What did Biden think was gonna happen? They pass around cans of Pepsi and world peace is gonna break out?
Might’ve worked if we sold them a shit load of 24packs…. Instead of bombs and bullets
I think they were expecting a much more restrained military response, rather than “1 out of every 200 Palestinians in Gaza is now dead, and the number is rising with no end in sight”
For comparison, from 2003-2005 in Iraq, around 30,000 civilians died, which was closer to 1 out of every 2000 Iraqis, and it was (rightly) considered a major fucking problem, both morally and strategically/politically.
Turns out when you sell a bunch of zealots bombs and tell them they have our unconditional support…
…. They think you’re down for the genocide…
… They think you’re down for the genocode…
We weren’t? But their skin is terrorist shade…
no no no. We’re Liberators. We don’t do genocide. we uh. liberate. and, uhm, stuff.
Before sending weapons, money or unconditional support (as other political leaders said) one should be sure conventions about human rights and international law in general is going to be respected. Or do they trust each other taking only the word like friends in a pub? We, westerners, are responsible for those deaths and should carry them on our conscience.
If you’re referring to the US, they haven’t sent Israel any weapons since the October 7 attacks. They have already warned Israel to obey the rules of war. And currently the US is not considering sending bombs, only anti-missile systems for Israel alongside humanitarian aid for Gazans.
I agree, but I don’t appreciate where the numbers come from. The Palestine Health Authority is basicly Hamas. They over report their numbers. The DoD is also keeping track which should be closer to the truth. Of course, media uses the Health Authority numbers because that’s all they get. So, if this report is to be believed it means that the DoD numbers are still too high. Looks to me, since the IDF is now engaging Hamas directly, that these numbers will only increase substantially
I agree, but I don’t appreciate where the numbers come from. The Palestine Health Authority is basicly Hamas. They over report their numbers.
They released a list of all 6400 and change known casualties the other day (the number of casualties was a little below 7000 then), and reported an extra 200 unidentified. Like, with names and national IDs. I think any overreporting will be within the bounds of the situation being chaotic as all hell instead of anything malicious.
First I’m hearing about Hamas being not malicious. Interesting…
I mean Hamas is a terrorist organization but they’re also a government. The health ministry of all places has things to do other than plotting the destruction of Israel.
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Nasty little guy aren’t you
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I think Biden is not looking forward to the upcoming headlines that the Gaza invasion has surpassed the entire Ukraine invasion in civilian death toll (in just one month). Kinda makes it hard to keep the spiel going that Israel are the good guys.
More importantly, it makes it increasingly hard to justify US interventionist policies in Ukraine. Biden has simultaneously strengthened relations between Russia and the Middle East while weakening the position of NATO in Ukraine to some degree.
All the signs were there that this was the WRONG FUCKING DECISION. After pulling out of Afghanistan and settling one 20 year long Middle Eastern quagmire, I cannot for the life of me understand why he voluntarily entered the US into another one even if it was through one degree of separation. This is one of the all-time stupidest political blunders, and I firmly believe it could cost Biden the election next year.
Beyond that, the US is knowingly enabling Israel’s bloodlust after Netanyahu and Likud spent the last twenty years frothing at the mouth, waiting for the opportunity to commit genocide while unifying Israel and wiping out what remained of the Palestinian people. It is completely fucking repugnant, and it truly seems like we are witnessing a tearing of the social fabric of society on all sides. I fear for what the next twenty years are going to look like more and more everyday.
Supporting Ukraine is the right move geopolitically and morally. We are preventing genocide there. Unfortunately we’re in the opposite position in Israel.
This isn’t a one-size-fits-all scenario. Some conflicts are just and some are not. We are supposed to elect folks with the judgment to determine which is which. Unfortunately Biden made a bad call here and the other side of the aisle is even more rabidly anti-Muslim and certainly wouldn’t handle this any better, so the Palestinian people will have to spend the blood of children until the toll is too great to ignore and only then will we put pressure to Israel to find a non-genocidal way to move forward.
Supporting Ukraine is the right move geopolitically and morally.
I agree. I’m not sure why you thought that perhaps I didn’t.
We are preventing genocide there. Unfortunately we’re in the opposite position in Israel.
Yes, and that is exactly why it becomes difficult to sell the idea of interventionist policy. When the people of the world see the United States as no longer being capable of differentiating between a just and unjust conflict then all that is left is the belief that every decision that is made is being done to drive the military industrial complex and the capitalist lust for infinite growth at any cost. When that happens you are implicitly losing the moral justification that may exist because people no longer believe they can trust your motives. There are consequences to bad judgement.
This isn’t a one-size-fits-all scenario.
I never said or implied that it was.
Some conflicts are just and some are not. We are supposed to elect folks with the judgment to determine which is which.Unfortunately Biden made a bad call here and the other side of the aisle is even more rabidly anti-Muslim and certainly wouldn’t handle this any better, so the Palestinian people will have to spend the blood of children until the toll is too great to ignore and only then will we put pressure to Israel to find a non-genocidal way to move forward.
My argument is that the historical track record of the United States in determining this has irrevocably damaged the public trust to the degree that many rational people are becoming apathetic to the political process because no matter what they do it only results in violence against innocent people. You can disagree with this if you wish, but I have seen so much of this sentiment lately that I am really not sure if Biden can win based on how bad his judgement has been in dealing with this conflict. At some point it doesn’t matter if you are better than the alternative if the average person no longer cares enough to make a distinction.
They’re totally out of touch, and expected a 9/11 like bloodlust. But 22 years is a long time, and the internet is able to disrupt the manufacturing of consent for genocide.
Not to mention I have a hard time finding anything about the response to 9/11 that I think was a good idea. Locking airplane cockpits as standard practice is one. Invading Afghanistan and Iraq aren’t.
For reference, at 500,000 the Russian invasion death toll sits at just under 25% of the total population of Gaza. So far 0.3% of the population are reported as casualties since the Hamas attack on Oct 7th. Let’s not forget that figure includes any deaths from Hamas rockets that misfired and landed in Gaza (about 10-30% of them do that and they fired thousands of rockets), as well as any Hamas terrorists killed. Hamas does not differentiate casualties, instead calling them all civilians and attributing them all to Israel.
The numbers are self reported by hamas anyway, so the real number is likely even lower than that.
Chill dog, this ain’t Israel. No one is buying that horseshit.
Nah, you prefer your horseshit spood fed by terrorists.
Nah dude, fuck the other side too for real just to be clear. The truth is what it is and it stings.
Chill dog. Lemmy hates facts
Sends bombs
Bombs kill people
Why does this keep happening?
Notice that sending bombs doesn’t necessarily end up with thousands of civilians dead. Ukraine has been getting plenty of bombs and the number of civilian casualties in Russia and Russian occupied territory is negligible. Even Russia’s civilian infrastructure bombing campaigns took 2 years to kill as many civilians as Israel killed in the last 2 weeks and were already barbaric by all standards.
Why negligible, No innocent civilian should be killed if some dumbfuck(s) decide to start a war
Idk, just keep sending bombs I guess?
Inb4 bombs don’t kill people, people kill people
sends people to train other people how to kill people with the bombs
“We only gave them millions of dollars, weapons, and made sure that no other countries got involved, we never thought they’d take the opportunity to commit the genocide they’ve been talking about for
3,00070 years”*billions of dollars
Muslims didn’t exist 3000 years ago.
Thank you Hall Monitor, jaybone.
Yeah, well, Joe already knew Israel was ruled by a Fascist well before he hitched his country to the choices of said Fascist with his “unwavering support” speech and sending another shipment of weaponry and ammo.
It’s like entering a bank alongside a guy wearing a ski mask and carrying a submachine gun, loudly declaring “unwavering support” for him and openning up a suitcase with a broad selection of handheld guns and saying “Would you like some more?”: you can hardly honestly claim you’re not in on the subsequent bank robbery after doing something like that.
The US hasn’t sent any military equipment to Israel since the attack on October 7.
Biden requested a package, but Congress hasn’t yet approved it. It consists mainly of missile defense systems, not weapons for the current offensive. And it includes an almost equal dollar amount in humanitarian aid.
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So what you’re saying is that I should’ve used “and once the bank robbery was happenning, pulled out two RPGs and offered more guns to the bank robber ‘once my buddies approve it’” in my metaphor rather than the whole “openning a suitcase full of guns before the robbery” thing: after all, the US did send 2 aircraft carriers to “support Israel” and will be sending an “aid” package now that the fascists in Israel have already and clearly been acting for several weeks far beyond self-defense and into Genocide territory.
Indeed, all things considered, it’s even harder for Joe and his posse to feign surprise at their greatest Fascist buddy going full Fascist than it would’ve been per my over-optimistic early point.
Good point and well spotted.
Biden’s aid package consists of anti-missile defense systems and humanitarian aid to Gazans. I have no problem with either of those, and neither should Gazans.
The aircraft carrier and other naval forces aren’t doing anything except trying to keep other countries from entering the conflict and shooting down missiles. Which again I have no problem with.
If you must draw a silly analogy, it’s like showing up to the bank robbery and opening a suitcase full of bulletproof vests.
We’ve been giving Israel billions every year for 40 plus years so it’s more like we took the bank robber shopping for his mask and guns and then drove him to the bank
They’re actively trying to bypass Congress right now.
Quite the opposite, Biden just threatened to veto an Israeli military aid package.
Joe might have to stop backing Israel.
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This belongs in nottheonion
I can’t help be cynical that this sudden concern comes at the same time that Arab American Organisations have indicated they may ask their communities to sit out the next election.
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Never has the moniker Sleepy Joe been so applicable.
Better late than never, I fucking guess…
Next time there’s a UNSC vote on a ceasefire: US veto
What does the Jewish population think in the US? Are they backing Israel no matter what?
The jewish population isn’t a monolith. There are some orgs that back Israel, and others, like Jewish Voice for Peace which do incredible work advocating for Palestinian liberation.
Probably some sciencey poll on it. I had to change my route recently because of a protest against this war by Jewish groups blocked my train station one night.
You know that scene from the simpsons where mr. burns is running for governor, and he spits the 3 eyed fish chunk across the room?
And the political dude is like “ruined before it hit the ground”
This is that moment lol. This dude is not going to be winning the next election they way he’s handling all this.
