Oh boy liberal vs conservative, what a wide variety of political opinion allowed for by the “financial times”
I don’t think they use the definition of liberal that you think they’re using.
They’re not, this is the traditional polling version of liberal vs. conservative — the one that everyone who is not terminally online uses and can understand as it has been around for over a century.
It wouldn’t make sense to ask people are you conservative or conservative, would it?
They’re not, this is the traditional polling version of liberal vs. conservative — the one that everyone who is not terminally online uses
How do you describe the right wing ideology of liberalism in a not confusing way without rejecting liberalism=left as a definition?
the right wing ideology of liberalism
WTF do you think “liberalism” means? It’s the opposite of authoritarianism, it’s not really left or right.
Liberalism is an economic system.
OK, that’s a new one to me. Know that when you use the word in most contexts that’s not what people think you mean by it!
Well, most people have been miseducated on politics and the economy in the United States.
Easy, I use political science terms and traditional analysis instead of terminally online ones. The important thing to remember is that liberal vs. conservative is an ideological midpoint for the discourse being discussed and/or measured. You can apply this to any group or discourse — in the OP it’s being applied to the whole of a nation’s body politic. However, you can just as easily apply such a division to only self-described leftists — thus creating a conservative subgroup who still exist well to the left side of the entire population, but are to the right of the other ideological half of the spectrum of this subgroup.
There isn’t an objective midpoint in ideology that applies across political systems and time. Which is good, because the overall trend throughout history is leftward and a relative system is able to both capture that as well as provide descriptive value for a given measurement period.
Easy, I use political science terms and traditional analysis
I literally use “liberal” to mean liberal capitalist because I read political economics books. When you say “political science” and “traditional analysis” you are referring to something that is a lot less universal than you think it is.
Also like how do you talk about liberalism and neoliberalism in a non confusing way while also claiming liberalism is left? You didn’t answer my question you just took a swipe.
The important thing to remember is that liberal vs. conservative is an ideological midpoint for the discourse being discussed and/or measured
Except this is a very narrow overton window(more like an arrow slit) and if you limit your discussion to it you miss a lot of context and analysis.
Which is good, because the overall trend throughout history is leftward and a relative system is able to both capture that as well as provide descriptive value for a given measurement period.
This is kinda unfalsifiable
Also like how do you talk about liberalism and neoliberalism in a non confusing way while also claiming liberalism is left?You make it clear with your audience that you’re talking about the “liberal” in the economic sense and not “liberal” in the philosophical sense. From a philosophical perspective is the difference between being pro changes (liberal) vs being against changes (conservative), and as the person previously mentioned, in this sense you could say there are conservative communists (want to follow Marx’s philosophy to the letter) and liberal communists (believe in the basic principles but feel some things need to be adjusted), just like there are liberal conservatives (believe in small/efficient State but individual freedoms) and conservative conservatives (social conservatives).
You make it clear with your audience that you’re talking about the “liberal” in the economic sense and not “liberal” in the philosophical sense.
Liberalism as a philosophy is connected to the economic structure? Are you referring to a different philosophy and calling it liberal?
From a philosophical perspective is the difference between being pro changes (liberal) vs being against changes (conservative)
Okay, yes, you are. Liberalism is literally the status quo.
in this sense you could say there are conservative communists (want to follow Marx’s philosophy to the letter) and liberal communists (believe in the basic principles but feel some things need to be adjusted)
You literally can’t be a marxist and take Marx as dogma. Marxism is a process based ideology.
Right and righter.
What other social ideology is there?
Most of these are political ideologies. I asked for social ideologies.
It’s clear what liberal and conservative means here.
They’re the same thing. Politics are simply a manifestation of a persons social values.
Agree to disagree. Liberal in this context means not forcing women to have children, not suppressing LGBTQ community, and not discriminating people based on their race, gender, or sexuality.
Reserve this ‘right and righter’ snark for some other time, when it’s applicable.
Yes, these graphs don’t many any sense other than generating clicks.
This data is poorly presented and unclear. It may well have some really useful insights, but it’s definitely not beautiful.
I’m not sure how to even interpret it.
I came to the comments and still don’t.
At that point it’s barely data either.
For those who are actually using this data to make commentary on anything—I feel like it’s poorly represented and not at all adequately powered. I would take this with a grain of salt
This data is anything but beautiful. Its horrendously laid out. Not intuitive in the slightest.
That’s on purpose. It’s a conservative opinion piece.
Aha, that explains the weird positioning of the zero axis.
If only there was a way to talk about political ideology that indicated some kind of direction, then we could orient the data in such a way that the arrows went in the direction of that ideology.
And I don’t like how sparse the data points are but they went with a wobbly interpolated curve anyway.
It looks like they only asked about five people in the UK.
I don’t know about beautiful data. That’s scary data :/
It’s only beautiful in that is well visualized. The data itself is scary.
Do you know a community that fits?
No no, that’s not what I meant. I wasn’t trying to have a go at you. It fits here perfectly. I was just upset at the trend it was showing :\
Nah, here is fine, the data is presented beautifully.
If I am reading this correctly, men drifting towards conservative and women drifting towards liberal?
That would reflect the culture found in apps - I feel like men with andrew tate and things like truth social/rumble/kick and women drift more towards stuff like reddit/tiktok/instagram where you can usually see a lot more liberal idealogy.
The term you missed to use was, “echo chambers.” Both both and all.
I’ve tried so many different social media platforms and every single one has been an echo chamber for their little slice of hell.
Lemmy just happens to be FOSS tech and liberal stuff. They’re all echo chambers for sure.
not surprising. the american right is specifically catered to address male grievances.
not fix these grievances mind you, but exploit them
And how do they exploit them?
By keeping them at a hysterical fever pitch, 24/7.
Amplifying ignorance, weaponizing mental illness.
That is the right wing and republicans, with every profane breath.
Much like the left caters to women and minorities… good point.
This data is the World world, not just “America world”.
Also, if men are going right, then the left needs to step up their offering.
“When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
Correct. Why would anyone go for a worse option for themselves?
Edit: A benefit to one group does not mean a detriment to others. This is not a zero sum game.
The funny thing is that the left could offer so many things for men:
- address mental health issues
- paternal leave / support for fatherhood
- Less dangerous work
- rehabilitation in prisons
- a free lamborghini
- address homelessness
All of which are mostly men issues.
Is it really worse? Or does it just hurt your feels when women can decide something on their own?
Why not both? Benefit to women, and benefit to men.
This isn’t a zero sum game.
You’re not wrong, but the wage gap? Not going to close if we give everyone a raise. It would be the same wage gap.
The gender pay gap is insignificant and inconsequential compared to the income differences between working and owning classes. Also, much of the pay gap is due to men culturally tending to not have the option of escaping the grindset. “Honey I’m going to quit my job and do something that doesn’t alienate me, yes it’s going to pay less” is not something universally accepted by wives.
I’m pretty sure that by this point most reasonable people have realized that the wage gap is a myth, so that’s probably not your best example.
Name one thing thats gotten better for men in 50 years.
being gay is more accepted. there’s also much less pressure to conform to masculine standards. e.g., being able to talk about feelings, expressing yourself in fashion/makeup, joining in traditionally feminine careers like
nursing/teaching (both of which have exploded in the past 50 years). just to name a fewthey also haven’t used the draft in 50 yearsedit: striked through things are either factually incorrect (nursing) or more nuanced than my original comment implied (military draft)
being gay is more accepted.
Fair. A win for all.
there’s also much less pressure to conform to masculine standards. e.g., being able to talk about feelings
Not the wider experience. Men are still stigmatised for expressing themselves. Example: how often do men get to be emotionally vulnerable in a public setting compared to women?
joining in traditionally feminine careers like nursing/teaching
This is flat out wrong, it’s actually getting worse.
https://www.unesco.org/en/articles/gender-equality-and-through-teaching-profession
Sex ratios in healthcare occupations: population based study.
they also haven’t used the draft in 50 years
That’s because there are enough men who are financially destitute, who sell their lives into the military.
Don’t need a draft when there is enough blood money going around.
The fact that I can’t wear a skirt in public without facing backlash, but a woman wearing pants is seen as normal makes me feel like there is still a lot of progress we have to make. I guess it’s equivalent would be women going topless casually. I really hate conservative/puritan values.
Here’s 3.
- Addressing men’s mental health. Normalizing therapy and talking about issues.
- Promoting ideals and examples of healthy intimate relationships: communication, setting boundaries, etc.
- Moving a way from the insecure, performative, fucked up version of “masculinity” – e.g. “I can’t wear pink, play with dolls with my kid, or bake because those things are feminine”.
Yeah, fuck men who want to wear blue and play with cars. Being a man isn’t allowed. Unless you accept feminization, you’re the enemy. No wonder men choose to vote for the bad guys, when the “good” side demand that they play a role as weak.
Why do things need to get better for men? Things have been pretty excellent for men for a very very long time.
- high suicide rate
- male loneliness has always been terrible and it’s on the rise
- 19 out of 20 deaths at the work place are men
- most likely to have poor work-life balance
- most likely to be imprisoned
- most likely to be homeless
- most likely to NOT get custody of the kids they love
Pretty excellent, aye? These men just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Nice quote. Won’t win over men who are shifting Right because of consistent targeted alienation in involvement from the Left
If other people having rights is “targeted alienation”, then what should we call denying those people rights based on things they can’t control? Because that sounds like actual targeted alienation.
Read my comment again, slowly. What does “alienation in involvement” mean?
If uplifting groups of oppressed people to an equal standard is alienating to you, then you are falling into the tolerance paradox, and you should probably stop that.
You’re straw manning here, that’s not what he said at all.
He’s referring to the knee jerk lesser treatment of men, because their men, because some other men have done bad shit. If you’re constantly grouped in with the worst of a group just for existing, of course you get sucked into that group.
Hard to Strawman, a Slippery Slope. I was merely pointing out it’s a Slippery Slope without whipping out my Fallacies.
While this is true, it’s also true that pendulum swings can go further in the opposite direction than equality.
While a trite example, in the recent Barbie film, at the end when things are going back to the seemingly good way, the men in Barbieland ask if they can have a seat on the supreme court and are told no, which is then explained as Barbieland being a mirror to the real world such that as there’s increased equality in the real world then equality for men in the mirror would increase.
Apparently the writers weren’t familiar with the fact there’s four women on the supreme court right now and a woman has been on the court since 1981 (around twice as close to the creation of Barbie than to the present day).
Even in the context of its justifiably imbalanced equality it failed to be proportionally imbalanced.
There’s interesting research around how the privileged underestimate the degree to which the good things that happen to them are because of privilege, but that at the same time the underprivileged overestimate how often the bad things which happen are because of bias. In theory both are ego-preserving adaptations. But it also means that either side is going to have a difficult time correctly identifying equality from their relative subjective perspectives.
While a trite example, in the recent Barbie film
You mean self aware, hyperbolic satire?
They know there have been women on the supreme court. It was a reference to second wave feminism, and inverted because that was the joke.
While you are welcome to your take, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and here’s the writer/director responding to that very scene:
Li: Speaking of those video clips, let’s talk more about the ending. Can you tell me about the decision to have the Barbies and Kens reach, not a definitive solution, but kind of a détente? President Barbie, played by Issa Rae, does not allow Ken a seat on the Supreme Court. They’re still figuring things out.
Gerwig: We’re all still figuring things out—that’s part of it. But the only thing I could ever give anyone is that they’re all still in the mess. Maybe it’s a little better for the Kens. You don’t want to tell people how to watch things, but at the end of the movie, the production design incorporates some of Ken’s fascinations into Barbie Land. Like, the perfection is not as beautiful as the thing that started blending everything together. I remember when we went to shoot the finale, when we all walked on set, we were like, This is the most beautiful it’s ever been.
It was a film about plastic dolls from a corporation trying to seem less like a big bad corporation. If you’re using the Barbie movie as evidence in an actual philosophical debate around other human beings having equal rights, you have bigger problems in life.
Philosophy is all about finding meaning in common life, why shouldn’t we use the barbie movie?
Because pop culture corporate feminism isn’t actual meaningful feminism, it is an entirely different beast the serves to reinforce the patriarchy.
How does it do that?
We tried that, ended up with a bunch of grifters coming in, doing a bunch of damage, and then making “why I left the left” videos.
There is a path of healing but it’s not going to happen until they address their white supremacy and take it behind the shed.
white supremacy and bring it behind the shed.
Fair.
So, this is the predicament for men:
Honestly if not being a fascist piece of shit is that big of a deal breaker you kind of deserve it.
This just in: all men are fascists.
No, all Trump supporters are fascists. I know you know how to read. No one said all men were fascist, only the ones who choose to be conservative and/or throw their support behind a self professed dictator.
No, all Trump supporters are fascists.
Fair, but this left-right / men-women divide isn’t just an American issue. Take another look at the OP image.
Yes, kill all men. Bring on the patricide, then we’ll go after the gamers next. None shall be spared the wrath of the left.
This “data” is hilarious. You should read the article it’s attached to. They throw these charts up and then just use 4 or 5 anecdotes to take a victory lap for conservatism.
shcoking, women arent a fan en masse of being ‘tradwifes’ to tate blowhards
This is an opinion piece they are really really reaching with.
Conservatives have been running this for a few days now but it just doesn’t add up. At least for the US it flies in the face of all published polling, including what they claim as sources. Unless you look at Gen Z men skewing independent and take that as them becoming more conservative because you only see the political spectrum as D/I/M.
But that’s not what being an independent means. It isn’t a party. It’s literally not having a party.
I forgot to add, there’s also the Roe effect. The overturning of Roe has pushed women left in the US.
Damn. The ruling class sure was successful in creating new wedges to divide their work slaves. It is not even only con and lib, there are so many more ingroups nobody needs and “sOcIaL mEdIa” is the tool to brainwash us into hating each others guts.
I personally don’t like how the top left one starts at 2005, unlike every other graph, but they all have the same x scale. (I nitpick things sometimes)
i sorry about women in south korea
Women have always saved the world
Is this American liberal or real liberal?
Or American conservative or real conservative
It’s Burgerland liberal, which is center-left to right. Burgerland conservative is right to fash.
It’s relative to the nationstate’s domestic policies in question. And just a heads up, I know when people make statements like this it just reveals a lack of understanding regarding foreign countries’ domestic politics. However, it’s also important to point out that the meme itself is incredibly ethnocentric and is fundamentally based on a dismissal of the validity of political discourse outside Western Europe and North America. You don’t mean to be racist, right?
“American” is hardly an ethnicity (except maybe if you are referring to native Americans of course), so this has nothing to do with racism. Secondly I assume the author of the comment is refering to the simple fact that the terms “liberal” and “conservative” have drastically different connotations in Europe and the US.
They also have drastically different connotations in America depending on whether the user can read a book.
I think it’s a higher bar of actually reading one. Only around 20% of Americans read a book, any book, within the ages 18-29.
This “meme” is not ethnocentric. Liberalism has a definition. The meaning became lost to Americans thanks to two red scares and a cold war. So now you have centrists like Bernie Sanders calling themselves socialist, which is absolutely not true.
Bernie believes in the eradication of capitalism, he’s a socialist working in a fucked over Overton window that means the best policies he can argue for would fall under social democracy at best.
Which, to be very clear, makes him a raging commie by American political standards.
The only people who argue he’s a capitalist are people that think socialism is when poor.
Bernie believes in the eradication of capitalism
No, he believes in the eradication of “über” capitalism, as his new book states: It’s OK to Be Angry About Capitalism. He is a There Is No Alternative, Nordic model welfare capitalist. He never has and never will call for the abolition of private ownership of the means of production.
During Sander’s 2020 presidential campaign he called for corporate accountability reform which would have given workers the ability to elect a portion of the board of directors for the corporation they work for.
That is a feature of the Nordic model—as I said above—and is still capitalism: Worker representation on corporate boards of directors
I’m about as far-left as they come. I want to understand.
What would it mean in terms of policy to “call for the abolition of private ownership of the means of production”? Would you prefer something closer to the Meidner Plan? Because that’s further left than Bernie’s plan but could also be considered part of the “Nordic Model”.
As far as I can tell, this kind of rhetoric stems from a lack of understanding of the economic similarities between the “Nordic Model” and Chinese-style communism.
Socialism can develop differently in different countries. As such I believe that it’s better to engage in international solidarity, rather than nit pick differences.
But, I’m open to being wrong.
As a Swede, what he’s been advocating for doesn’t sound like the nordic model to me.
