The Linus Tech Tips abuse allegations are yet another reminder that something absolutely needs to be done about the rampant sexism in the tech industry. If you haven’t heard them yet you can read about them here, but be warned, there is some potentially very triggering abuse and self harm detailed: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1691693740254228741.html
Madison’s story is not unique - we have heard stories like hers time and time again. As a tech professional it makes me sick to share an industry with these horrible people, and to know that little is being done to reign them in.
So, what can be done about this? I don’t have all of the answers, but one thing that comes to mind is that HR departments desperately need actual unbiased oversight, perhaps even from a governing body outside of the company. It has become common knowledge that HR’s primary purpose is to protect the company, and this prevents employees from speaking out and driving internal change even in terrible situations like Madison Reeve and countless others have faced. The way things are run clearly needs to fundamentally change
Let me know in the comments if you have any ideas on how we as a tech community might be able to address these issues, I am truly at a loss. All I want is for tech to be a safe space for everybody to find their passion and success, and it saddens me that we clearly aren’t there yet.
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That’s a great point, unions are really under utilized in tech and would help a ton with this. I’m not sure if forming a union is 100% of the solution though, there are powerful unions in hollywood and sexism has still been allowed to run rampant there for example
Unions are never the solution in and of themselves. They give workers the power to do something about problems together, no more no less. The alternative is to not have any power and maybe ask politely.
As someone with way too many years in the tech industry having suffered these toxic brogrammer cultures I can confidently say the reason unions won’t take off is people assume if “I am in a union then as an engineer I’ll only make as much as the project manager, and I want my 300k TC!” Which is completely incorrect but good luck convincing these younger engineers that, I’ve been trying for years.
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I’m not exactly in tech, tech-adjacent, but I’m a minority as a man in the office where I work and it is so refreshing. No bullshit macho culture I never felt a part of in the first place and everyone just does their job without trying to out-do each other. Really robust sexual harassment policies too.
I so don’t miss endless bro talk about football and grilling and stupid shit like that.
I agree with what you said for the most part, except the fact that I wouldn’t define sexism in the majority of cases having people “stealing” your ideas, nor shooting down ideas.
In the first case it seems a common practice in competitive environments, where workers have no incentive at all to cooperate and all the incentive to screw each other to look better and chase promotions. I think people who do that regularly do that with everyone. Appropriating ideas and work of others is how middle managers in many cases got there and how they climb the ladder, even though everyone knows what they are worth.
The second is an extremely common occurrence in tech, ideas are shot down all the time. I have seen it occurring countless of times, I don’t think is a sexist practice inherently, although still something extremely annoying within tech. It is sexism when ideas are shot down “because a woman is saying it”, though.
My final remark is about the part about “males getting raises without even asking” (paraphrasing). Now, this may have been true in your context, I have no way to dispute it. However, I just want to reinforce that the narrative of “males being somewhat on the same side” disregarding the conflict within workers and owners (I.e. those who get the raises and those who give them) seems to be completely fabricated (based on my experience) and also extremely damaging to workers solidarity. The narrative that somehow gender prevails over class as a factor of unification is very dangerous and plays right in the hand of those who benefit from gender conflict as an obstacle for class unity.
I think some of the points you have to look at demographically and use privilege to correct it. I’m not a woman, but I’ve seen women I work with have their ideas “shot down” simply because it was from them even if it was paraphrased a minute later by a man then magically it’s perfect!
I often make a point of correcting that in my org by saying “This was a good idea the first time from (woman), why did we move on from it last time?” So then people who shot this down have to awkwardly explain why they “didn’t understand” or make up some excuse. It works to highlight that maybe you just weren’t listening. Because it was a woman speaking. It’s unfortunate but it’s common in FAANG. I’m just tired of seeing it as someone who’s worked with some really incredible women who left the industry because of the toxicity.
But isn’t that what he just said? It’s not sexism if someone is just shooting an idea down. Stealing the idea is morally apprehensible. Shooting an idea down because “it’s you” is discriminatory. Shooting an idea down because “a woman had it”, now that’s sexism.
I see a lot of ppl claim sexism, and it might as well be present, even if subtly for a lot of different companies. That said, context matters, and you can be an absolute prick to ppl with out even invoking any sexism.
E.g. I hear students doing an internship often get overlooked. Not cool, some of them are geniuses. Same goes for ppl lower in the corporate ladder vs. higher in the corporate ladder.
What I’m trying to say is: let’s be absolutely clear with what we define as sexism, because it shouldn’t lose it’s meaning by being inserted into discrimination. You don’t need sexism there everytime to involve OSHA.
Also let’s make this clear: if Madison’s allegations are true (and she doesn’t have a horse in this race so there’s a good chance they are), we can straight up skip the sexism and go straight to harassment, abuse, sexual assault, and more. I hope she is able to grasp the sheer horror that this really was, because she should know that no one deserves that and ppl will support the fight in her name.
I figure those issues could be more statistically likely to happen to women, but as you highlighted this is something that tend to happen in tech regardless. I hate shouting match and talking over people, and I am definitely at a disadvantage when meetings reach a certain critical number of participants.
The thing is, when I get talked over, or when my ideas are ignored only to be slightly reworded and repeated by some guy who hasn’t shut up the entire time, well first thing is I give no fucks. There is definitely privilege in the sense that as a man I don’t feel like I have to prove my worth, it is already assumed, so I don’t have to care about looking good in every meeting. Also, as a man, when I am mostly ignored because people are too eager to speak rather than listen, my first assumption is that those people simply suck at meetings. I have the privilege of knowing that it is not discrimination.
Simply doubting that discrimination can exist is mentally exhausting. 20 years ago I was LGBTQ in a rather unaccepting environment, but it rarely came up, nor did most people know. Every time my presence or my ideas weren’t fully acknowledged with approbation I doubted if this was about my identity. I became very insecure about it over time, I simply assumed that I would never be respected as an equal, ever. Well, 20 years later and I am pretty sure this insecurity dripped like crazy in my personality and apparent confidence. This hurt me way more than actual LGBTQ prejudice I am sure.
Anyway, I am just trying to throw in some food for thoughts. There is a lot of competition of ideas going on in tech, very little positive feedback, and a lot of talking over people, because this is just how a lot of men are unfortunately. I fully understand why people who are more likely to be prejudiced against would perceive all sort of false signals in there.
Disclaimer: I know sexism is a real thing, and some women are absolutely being victimized in the workplace. I am merely expanding on the idea that it is because real sexism exists that it is extra important to learn how to be respectful and have good vibes in the workplace.
Also, as a man, when I am mostly ignored because people are too eager to speak rather than listen, my first assumption is that those people simply suck at meetings. I have the privilege of knowing that it is not discrimination.
But it might as well be. I was discriminated/bullied for quite some time after I joined a company. People assumed I knew nothing and disregarded almost anything I said, and generally didn’t even ask me. I was one of the two people in a department. Those people did not suck at meetings/conversations, it was an active discrimination based on their preconceptions. I don’t think gender is by far the only discrimination that can happen within the workplace. But yeah, I definitely agree that I will most likely not being discriminated as a man, in the sense that sexist discrimination in tech happens almost exclusively to women.
There is a lot of competition of ideas going on in tech, very little positive feedback, and a lot of talking over people, because this is just how a lot of men are unfortunately. I fully understand why people who are more likely to be prejudiced against would perceive all sort of false signals in there.
I agree. I - like many others - do my best to change the culture overall, to ensure that people who get promotions have fill leading positions are not those kind of people who will reinforce all of this. Also, I did not work in the US startup environment (and I consider myself lucky), which means I might also be missing real experiences on places much worse than the ones I have been in (the loner-tech-bro-genius hacking culture of the Silicon valley is something I greatly despise).
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Sexism isn’t sexism because it only happens to women.
I mean, if a behavior is not related to being discriminated based on gender, it’s not sexism. It can be mobbing, it can be simply a toxic competitive environment, but that doesn’t make it sexism, that is my point. “IF” being the keyword.
Implicit bias is a thing
I totally agree, and this is why I do think that for someone shutting down a woman, because implicitly there is the though “this is a woman and therefore doesn’t know what she is talking about”, can be sexist, but that behavior is not inherently sexist. There are multiple (bad) reasons why people might do that. People might assume I am not competent, too young/too old to know better, too recent in the company, I went to the wrong university, and many other reason. This is not inherently linked to gender discrimination, that is my point. It can be ageism, hazing (hopefully the translation is accurate), classism or even racism, if not just the behavior of people who just want to gain advantages at expense of others (which is not a form of discrimination per se). All these exist in the workplace, and that’s why I was challenging your conclusion that this is sexism by definition. Now if in your experience you think sexism was the root cause, sure, whatever. But if we want to move the conversation to a more generic “tech” environment, I think it’s worth to expand the analysis.
Thanks for writing an entire essay trying to disprove my experiences though.
Well, with this I guess I understand you are in bad faith. I did not try to disprove your experiences (in fact, I explicitly wrote that for one specific instance), I challenged some of the arguments you made. Trying to imply that I tried to disprove your experiences is extremely dishonest.
Why is it so hard to just listen to women?
Are we not allowed to have different opinion? Do I exist in the workplace as well? Also, expressions such as “And men are just blessed with raises and promotions they didn’t even ask for” are hard to relate for me and for any other working class man who struggle in the workplace I know. I understand you were trying to get your point across, but if that’s your perspective, then we simply live in two different worlds (which is totally possible, given that we probably live in very different places and companies).
I listened (well…read), and I questioned some of your conclusions. If this for you means “not listening to women”, then I suppose we have different perspectives.
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on someone else’s experience in life based on a single forum comment
You keep insisting on this point. I am not doing any of that. I am challenging the generalization of the analysis of those episodes to the whole sector. I am not interested in discussing or disputing your personal experience.
You don’t work for my company so I’m not sure why you are acting like the culture at your company where you can’t get promoted contradicts anything.
From how you wrote it, I did not understand it was specifically a statement regarding your company. In general I think that’s not the experience of most people especially in the last 2 years (given the layoffs), but obviously, if that’s what happens in your particular company, I have no way to dispute it. It is not representative of the general environment though, I hope we can agree that people are not thrown promotions generally out of nothing, and that employers try to squeeze employees as much as possible, even if men.
You are free to discuss your grievances, but for some reason these things only come up when women start talking about their experience…
I speak about these topics almost everyday, with colleagues and people in general. Not sure what are you trying to imply.
It’s just another “what about the men” comment that always comes up when women try to have a discussion. It’s a pattern of behavior that actually backs up my experience rather than refutes it.
My comment has nothing to do with this argument. This is just a strawman that you are using to win internet points, falling back on cliches. My argument is “the workplace is a warzone, full of conflict and discrimination. Certain behaviors that you describe can be sexist bu can also not be, and instead be classist, ageist, racist and also the result of distorted incentives for workers that end up fighting each other”. In fact, I would argue that ageism in tech is a problem as big as sexism, but apparently you are not interested in having this kind of conversation.
It contradicts a ton of research
Research shows a lot of ageism in tech. So actually refusing to acknowledge that certain behavior can be the result of other form of discrimination as well or even not a result of discrimination at all, but the result of the way power structure is, seems to be contradicting research. My statement is far from being absolute. I am not saying that sexism does not exist in tech, I am not blind, I am saying that those two very specific common patterns that you described (and that I challenged) are not inherently sexist (but can be). My overall intention is to expand the critique to the toxic working culture in tech looking at it from multiple angles, but again, it seems you are not interested and you really want to only look at this through the lens of gender discrimination.
To me, this seems shortsighted, partial and, if I may, also oppressive towards the many who are discriminated in the very same way but from different reasons. It is detrimental to the overall effort that us -workers- should do to shape the culture in tech in another way, that should push for structural change that would drastically modify the incentives people have and so on.
Yeah it really is the worst when you have to fight for something that men get without barely trying. And those same men will give advise on how to do it too, completely disregarding how responses are different for women, IE they’re not listening.
Plus one on using the hand raise feature.
Source: I’m working on this for myself, and it’s helping.
The only way to change culture is by example. Stand up to this behaviour when you see it perpetrated against your coworkers, especially if you’re male. Double especially if you’re in a position of power.
If you run a company, don’t overwork and abuse your employees, and make it safe for them to report these things (hint: this is not achieved by saying the words “this is a safe space”), then really deal with them.
Agree with the other commenter that unions are necessary, but you can’t solve cultural problems with regulation alone. All workers should be represented for lots of reasons, and this is one of them, but to collectively be better we have to individually and collectively model decent behaviour.
The only way to fix culture is to fire people who suck. Forcing people to take shitty “edib” training is useless, but lets companies feel like they’re addressing the problem.
If you needed to be told to treat women with respect you’re not going to learn how to in a 15 minute training video.
I agree with everything but your first paragraph hits the nail on the head! I wanna print it out and frame it. Place it in every office. It may feel awkward and scary, but it is so much more awkward and scary for the recipient(s) of the behavior and speaking up has a lot more risk for them than it would from a third party. It could be a simple “not cool/that’s too far” type comment with a chuckle. Fuck it just try something.
Well said.
HR departments desperately need actual unbiased oversight
This is the tech industry we’re talking about, so let’s make it buzzword-compliant. What we need is HRaaS: HR as a Service.
I can’t figure out if I want to downvote for the dumbness of this take on the topic, or upvote it for the accuracy.
NGL, I read it as “harass”, which is kinda ironic.
You can externalize hr but as long as they are beholden to the company it won’t make a difference. They need to be independent.
I’m a woman and I work in tech, as well as had nerdy techy hobbies since I was a child. I’ve definitely not experienced what Madison has experienced in my tech career but I have had plenty of sexist encounters in my time as a retail employee before my current career.
I’ve had a small few creepy incidents in my tech jobs but… Unfortunately what she experienced sounded a lot more like a dude bro gaming circle than an actual company. I’ve seen that behavior, just not in my career. Maybe I’m lucky, but I think the issue is so deeply rooted in LMG that I wouldn’t know how to fix it. It’s a weird gamer culture from what I can gather
The problem here is how “The Tech Sector” is grouped. There are plenty of companies in all sorts of fields with all sorts of different work environments and cultures grouped in under this umbrella.
That’s true, I’ve always considered LTT “consumer electronics” hobby more than anything IT related but tech quickie in it’s infancy taught me a lot and got me started
Yeah, I mean to be fair I’d not consider tech reporting as the tech sector or industry. Like what she’s doing. Eng, product, hardware, applied science, eng managers and maybe program if you’re lucky to have tech program managers. But otherwise you don’t need any engineering degree for their work.
HR != employee advocates.
HR has one core job: prevent employees from hurting the company. Sure, they help with payroll and benefits and recruiting and stuff, but at the end of the day, the true purpose of HR is that simple. Sometimes HR’s interests will align with your interests and good ethics in general. Sometimes they don’t. This doesn’t mean that you should default to having an antagonistic relationship with HR - in fact, you should definitely not do that. But you should also remember that HR’s goals may or may not align with your own. They are working for the company, not for you.
True worker representation can only be done by - you guessed it - workers.
Unionize. Solidarity forever.
You’re out wrong but it’s slightly more nuanced. Hurting people can hurt the company. If the company needs workers, it needs them. If they’re damaged or chased away by bad conditions, that makes it harder for the company to get and keep the people it needs. People’s treatment is also governed by laws. So if they are treated really wrong it can hurt the company in the form of penalties or even worse, bad PR like we see here.
So yeah, HR are not your friends, but it’s silly to lean too hard on the idea that they never help or protect employees. It’s in the company’s interest to do so, and so yes, they will do some of that.
one thing men can do is start treating women who work at tech companies or who work in tech as people who understand technology. it’s a small first step. men need to do better.
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Right? And it says she’s in Vancouver. That’s how you know she’s desperate because her wait time at VGH would have her bled out in the waiting room!
In all seriousness though; this screams wildly of startup bro culture. Especially the part where she said they had this “verbal agreement” yeah, they didn’t want anything written down because they know how screwed they’d be.
I hope she lawyers up!
This is not an issue just with tech but with many other sectors. If it has to be tackled first in tech, then so be it.
Is LTT really even part of the tech industry? It’s mostly a content mill from I’ve seen in the past week.
I would say it’s both, it is an extremely tech centric media production company with many employees who are tech professionals. That’s an interesting point though, the tech culture and media production culture definitely both seem to be at play here. This story just stirred up a lot of feelings for me on this recurring pattern I’ve been seeing in the tech industry as a whole, and many are rightfully pointing out that these problems aren’t just limited to the tech industry.
I’m a little unclear what “tech industry” means here. I lead a software development team that puts out a consumer app. Am I in the same “tech industry” as a bunch of yo-yos who produce videos about gaming cards? It doesn’t seem that way to me.
This is needlessly splitting hairs, Linus Tech Tips is absolutely part of the tech industry, and the parallels to other horror stories of the tech industry are too great to ignore. The people working on these videos are tech professionals similar to yourself, they test software similar to what you make, they have a company culture similar to tech startups, and other tech professionals consume their videos giving them influence in the tech community. They may not be doing the same thing in the industry as you are, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t part of it.
How about Audits by a governing body
Lmg is a cancer. That thread was horrifying to read.
