- cross-posted to:
- science@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- science@lemmy.world
Research says involuntary celibate men make “fundamental errors” about what women want in a partner.
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We all need more mental health help because *gestures broadly at everything.*
Also, mental health care is not going to solve problems caused by economic issues.
Came here thinking of a way to say exactly that so . . . uh . . same?
I don’t know about you but I do find my health a little mental
I can see that. These guys don’t know how to date/flirt etc they didn’t have the same milestones others kids did. They should have learned when everyone in their cohort was learning. Imagine if you didn’t learn the fundamentals of any subject but had to keep going to harder and harder levels. End up with the dating mind of a 13 year old trying to deal with 23 year olds. Of course you need experience to get experience like a fucking zen riddle so they fall even further behind. Partners don’t want to deal with the awkward insanity of a boy in a man’s body.
To be honest, dating 20+ is a shit show. The things i learned about dating in my teens didn’t help me dating in my 30’s. Sure they have issues dating but we all do. It’s the willingness to learn, adapt, and care for someone else that i don’t see in incels and that isn’t learned from dating in your teens. They seem to blame outside forces for their issues and not seek to improve themselves
Well for me it made a big difference. I don’t think me and my wife would have stayed together had it not been for other woman I had dated prior. Learned how to have an argument, how to show random acts of kindness, gotten the nerve up to tell them when they are hurting you unintentionally, etc. This stuff didn’t come naturally to me.
100%! I am not saying learning these things doesn’t help. But blaming lack of dating in their teens for an incel becoming who they are is not a valid justification in my opinion.
You can only blame yourself so much before it causes so much emotional anguish that you turn your frustration outwards.
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I never meant to imply/ say or in any way hint that therapy is bad. I think everyone can use it.
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Partners don’t want to deal with the awkward insanity of a boy in a man’s body.
nor should they be required to; the enormous amount of work we put on women to make relationships work is already crushing. This reminds me of the screeds about how “liberal women will need to compromise for the good of the demographics of the country, they’ll need to date conservatives of course!” - THEY REALLY THINK THIS SHIT. They feel they’re being DISCRIMINATED against for their views hahahaha, that’s how fucked up they are. https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2021/07/12/political-discrimination-as-civil-rights-struggle/
it’s obscene.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3675477-young-women-are-trending-liberal-young-men-are-not/
“liberal women will need to compromise for the good of the demographics of the country, they’ll need to date conservatives of course!” - THEY REALLY THINK THIS SHIT.
I think I know where this argument is coming from, but it’s a gross misrepresentation of what was actually said. Neither of your links support that anyone thinks this is the case. In fact, from the very conservative one, even without having access to the full article, they very explicitly note, after having said that only 6% of college women would date a trump supporter “While people are free to discriminate however they wish in dating, this attitude bleeds into problematic spheres such as hiring and social toleration.” It’s clear that they are trying to make the argument that this dating bias is an indication of a deeper bias. It’s still dumb, but I’ve yet to hear anyone of merit actually argue “liberal women will need to compromise for the good of the demographics of the country, they’ll need to date conservatives of course!”
well if you only need evidence to shut up, then:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/22/marriage-polarization-dating-trump/
https://fair.org/home/wapo-tells-women-if-you-want-marriage-compromise-with-misogyny/
is it unrealistic? sure is, the entire premise is facile - and mostly fabricated as that second link points out. It’s the fact that conservatives took to their opeds to decry the ‘discrimination’ that makes me sick. lilly white rich misogynists’ don’t need affirmative action dating programs.
That opinion piece you link to mainly makes the argument that it’s good for the individual as “on the whole, while politically mixed couples report somewhat lower levels of satisfaction than same-party couples, they are still likely to be happier than those who remain single.”’ To be fair, in passing, it also mentions it’s good for society.
Of course, it also clearly notes that “marriage isn’t for everyone. Nor is staying in a physically or emotionally abusive marriage ever the right choice.” So this whole claim that they are saying women should “compromise with misogyny” is completely untrue. It’s basically pointing out what should be obvious to everyone: who a person votes for does not tell the whole story about them. Granted, don’t get me wrong, voting for Trump really makes me raise an eyebrow, but I’m very liberal and work in a very mixed field and know plenty of people who voted for Trump and they are all good people. These are all people I spend a lot of time with and while I would vehemently disagree with them on politics and policy, I can also see that they are decent people. While I am lucky that my wife and I align very well, including politically, I think assuming that I could never have a fulfilling love life with someone who voted for Trump seems pretty narrow-minded.
This is exactly my situation and it seems to get more dire every year that I stay single. I wish I could upvotes you a thousand times.
Hey man, I had some of the same anxieties about being a late bloomer, never finding a girl, not knowing what to do if someone showed interest etc. This will probably not be new advice to you, but here we go:
No matter how old you are, it‘s never too late to start things. Go out and have some fun, socialize with women, try dating, do hobbies with women involved etc. Invest in yourself, have a basic level of hygiene and dress socially acceptable. At some point you will find someone who is into you, and if you are open and up front about your lack of experience, they will probably overlook most of the early dating blunders.
Just don’t go into it all with the expectation that something has to happen, or that if you do the right things someone has to be into you. It’s ok to fail, it’s ok to be awkward, you learn a lot from it.
If you wanna talk privately about this stuff, shoot me a dm.
This right there is the source of most of my anxiety
Try interacting with women without the expectation of an intimate relationship. And I don’t mean “be friends for a while with the end goal of getting with them”. I think a big issue is seeing women as an achievement instead of as people.
The thing is women don’t want male friends as well. They are taught by society that men are all perverts and dangerous. So when men try to make friends, they’re automatically suspicious or just straight up reject them.
What? Most women I know, including myself, have male friends. What are you on about? Are you doing a bit, per your username?
I’ll go ahead and file that one under “No shit.”
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Malignant misogyny isn’t mental illness.
We can address problems with male alienation, isolation, and loneliness without having to coddle terrorist reactionaries.
No but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t need addressing
that depends on what you mean by addressing - there’s a ton of apologism for incels, as if they’re being persecuted.
So yeah, there’s a spectrum here and women accepting abusive and misogynist partners is definitely in the right wing playbook.
Providing mental help does not equal women accepting abusive partners, how tf did you make that mental leap?
Edit: Upon reread, I see that you were genuine, and I actually do need to check and correct myself. Apologies.
how tf did you make that mental leap?
did you read the link or just jump into the comments with a rageon? because the link explains how the right wing thinks of this shit. I didn’t make it up, they did.
My bad, I assumed we were actually staying on topic - getting incels mental help. I’ll correct myself and assume from now on that any comments that fail to make sense are bad-faith attempts to co-opt a post.
Edit: Upon reread, I see that you were genuine, and I actually do need to check and correct myself. I apologize.
yeah I got that. that’s why I responded:
that depends on what you mean by addressing
because there’s a wide array of responses and I’m genuinely curious to learn what the OP of this thread meant. Not because I was attacking their premise, but because there’s past history of this tact - that the world should accommodate a percentage of the population who have shown misogynistic tendencies. To which I say: nah. nope. naw.
I apologize. I’ve been up for twenty-four hours, the last twelve of which were on a delayed and then stranded bus in a snow storm. I was taking out my frustrations on you, and was needlessly snarky.
Upon reread, I see that you were genuine, and I actually do need to check and correct myself. I’ll leave my earlier comments up with an edit.
Why would I mean apologism? They need their worldview reprogramming because their current worldview is misogynistic and false. Reprogramming would include comprehensive challenging of negative attitudes and modelling of correct, non-misogynistic beliefs. It should be done by people with psychological training because they have the skills and knowhow needed to reprogramme someone’s thinking but it doesn’t particularly need mental health professionals or collusive, misplaced sympathy.
I provided a link to the line of thought. If that’s not you, great. But that doesn’t mean it’s not real.
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I think you’ll find that when you have what you need and dissolving that which you need not, there’s way less room for crap like racism and the -phobias
No but it can absolutely be a trauma response.
trauma response
What trauma? listening to Jordan Peterson? If being rejected makes you hate women, then you were an entitled asshole to begin with. Nobody is owed affection, companionship, or romance.
This attitude is an insult to lonely
menpeople everywhere, who everyday cope with romantic failure without regressing into a chud. Incels are deplorable people; fuck 'em.Sigh. Just say you don’t know shit about mental health and move on with your performative outrage for any time you hear the word incel. I don’t have time to teach an idiot about trauma informed perspectives and it’s clear you’re not looking to learn anything, so I’m going to ask you to shut up and listen to the mental health professionals, like the one’s in the article who did the study. Because your little rage fit over incels is NOT more informed than studies conducted by professionals, and in fact is much more regressive so congrats for a perspective that make the problem you pretend to care about worse. Must feel nice to teach those incels a lesson though I’m sure you showed them.
Performative outrage is Lemmy’s kink
For real, like damn, if you want there to be less incels, well we gotta fix it, and unless their personal solution is to just round em up and throw em in camps, then maybe we have to listen to the people who spent time studying this. Shocking. I swear they just wanna feel mad and superior.
it’s on them to fix themselves. not society. I’m alone, divorced, but I still don’t blame women or society. that’s the incel’s problem: lack of personal accountability, entitlement to a woman, society blaming.
it takes two to make a relationship, and I’m tired of my fellow man being offended at having to work at having a relationship
So in one, direct, uninterrupted, comment chain we went from
No but it can absolutely be a trauma response.
to
it’s on them to fix themselves.
Geez lemmy.
it’s on them to fix themselves. not society
How’s that working out for society?
it’s not their fault, it’s a civil rights struggle.
Many tankies on Lemmy, throwing people in camps would probably get upvoted
many machines on IX.
What’s that got to do with the price of rice? You really think the only people who disdain incels are the tankies?
Got news for ya bud, that’s fucked.
incels keep shooting up schools, reason enough for me to dislike them.
So don’t you want to take steps to stop that or do you want to ignore it and just hope schools stop getting shot up?
I didn’t say that, I said I dislike them. Just as I dislike idiots like you who jump to the dumbest conclusions automatically.
This is a really gross and condescending take. Outrage over incels isn’t performative, and if you think so you’re either stupid or a psychopath. Just because you don’t personally face threats of bodily harm doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
Go outside.
Whats gross and condescending is looking at people who need mental help then saying “no they dont” simply because you don’t like them. You’re a moron who wants to feel better than another group of people and can’t see past your own dislike to actually solve a damn problem. If you don’t want it to be solved just say so. Just say “id rather do nothing an keep watching schools get shot up so I can look down on a group”. Your beliefs sound a lot more like a psychopath than beliefs that try to make it so incels dont exist anymore. So I repeat, you’re a moron.
Also if you’re outrage demands no solutions but to ignore the problem, then it’s exactly performative, because you don’t want to change anything, you just want to yell. Tell me whats more performative then outrage with no change?
That was completely incoherent and makes a hell of a lot of assumptions. I didn’t say half of what you’re crediting me with.
You’re unproductive. And not even addressing what my actual comment was about.
This was a well composed response but it doesn’t change the fact that nobody cares about incel mental health. And they shouldn’t because incels don’t really matter. Forget them. They are so far down the list of groups that need support it’s laughable. They are a joke and should be regarded as such. Your recognition of incels empowers them which warrants suspicion.
Also, your faith in mental health professionals is concerning. Are you, by chance, Canadian?
They are so far down the list of groups that need support it’s laughable.
Are you somehow thinking that “Giving incels help” means “enable them to continue being assclowns”? Because that’s the only way I can make sense of what you’re writing.
Giving potential offenders help in the form of enabling them to form relationships which aren’t abusive is helping not just incels, but also the people they would victimise. This isn’t a zero-sum game helping them to get their shit together is a win-win scenario.
Thank you. It’s not like they’re getting “special incel” mental health, its literally just normal mental health treatment that we have to find a way to get to them. Everyone here seems to think therapists are going to star talking like podcast bros, no, we just need more mental health everywhere, and that somehow pisses them off. Inhumane fucks.
Everyone here seems to think therapists are going to star talking like podcast bros, no,
Vaguely gestures at Dr. K
Your recognition of incels empowers them which warrants suspicion.
Sure bud. Recognizing problems is bad, and ignoring them is how we fix them. Huge brain take. If you really need find a group to feel superior to, you do you, but I suggest therapy and a better world view as a healthy alternative. You seem more eager to let the problem perpetuate, which warrants ACTUAL suspicion.
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it’s on them to fix themselves. not society. I’m alone, divorced, but I still don’t blame women or society. that’s the incel’s problem: lack of personal accountability, entitlement to a woman, society blaming.
it takes two to make a relationship, and I’m tired of my fellow man being offended at having to work at having a relationship
You sound like the barely middle class referring to the homeless. “It’s on them to fix themselves, not society. I smoked pot and drank in college, but I didn’t fall into addiction and lose my job and my home. That’s the homless’ problem: lack of personal accountability and willpower to get clean and sober and maintain a job.”
Making substance abuse a stigma instead of recognizing it as a physical and mental health condition hasn’t helped the homeless population pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Recognizing incelism as needing mental health treatment is no different. If it’s obviously a problem, it affects society, maybe we should look at it instead of turning out noses up and pretend not to see the problems.
I’m alone, divorced, but I still don’t blame women or society.
I’ve got this everybody.
Ahem.
Clap
There you go. Your one, single congratulations.
Can you get out of the way now? Give psychologists the space to do their god damn job?
Incels aren’t a problem for regular people. They only really exist in social media which is, obviously, not real life and cannot hurt you. Unless, you want them to? Did a troll hurt your feelings? Did he call you a cunt on Tinder? Did they call you “bud” in a sassy reply? You gave them power by being so fragile and now you want to give them more recognition. 80% of incels will grow out of it. This article, and you, are validating Jordan Peterson. Congratulations, you’re an incel ally.
They only really exist in social media
tell that to the fucking incels that keep shooting up schools.
I’m not entirely sure they’re fully unrelated either though.
Yeah, try telling them that and see how far it gets you…
“HEY BILL GIT THE TORTURE DEVICES READY”
I wonder if this outlook is more a sign that these people need some help getting started and in a productive tradjectory. Pretty sure this would be me if I hadn’t gotten laid+decent-pay, and had to live with family/random people, never having anything of my own…
I don’t know about that. I was pretty fine before my first. Place of your own and decent pay. Yeah. everyone needs that. Adults should be able to at a minimum have an efficency of their own while being able to pay at least minimal bills and if they split a multibedroom with roommates or rent out a room from a house they should be able to have a bit more spendy of a life. That should be the minimum and be easy to get. Not something you have to work hard to achieve.
I feel like you were mildly pushing back then ended up convincing yourself to the point you basicaly agree. Not that I want people to not be able to be satisfied even if they have to share a place, I’m just way to eclectic and crave freedom the moment the lock goes click lol
well I think the place of your own and independence is important for all adults but the virginity thing not so much.
Haha i was def referring more to the living situation tbh. I just mean people get obsessed often if they can’t obtain or experience something culturally significant aligns with one’s fundamental drives and for males it can be a more socially alienating thing to not have one notch under your belt.
Like if incels are who they are online with chicks or they were not having luck with being decent/kind pre-incel, it can create a vicious spiral of antisociality and mental degradation
yeah all the same I did not have sex till my upper twenties. granted I was in a challenging college major and did a year of a phd program and then after a few years of working in my field decided to change it which meant more study. So I had a lot to occupy me.
Its not a crime aha. It honestly scares me how much people are willing to compromise, give up, and tolerate just to “have access” to sex. I wouldn’t tradea thing that a toy can give me for a one-time like $100 investment lol.
Obviously there’s more to it than that but I wouldn’t sacrifice anything for its sake
Well anyone who wants any kind of relationship, be it it sexual, social, or business, has to compromise. My way or the highway with everyone will certainly result in being alone in all things. But that does not mean giving up stuff that is important to ones self. Generally compatibility comes about when both the people compromising are giving up either relatively unimportant or at least not very important things and of course it has to happen with both. Then there must be benefit that outweighs the sacrifice so that the relationship is strong. Sex itself should be its own thing and should not be considered a benefit, usually anyways sometimes someone is just amazing and you got to consider that a benefit. Sex though should be its own thing as there is a compatibility that is needed for that.
I mean there’s so many underlying issues with incels and trying to overcome learned helplessness is no small task. But an idea that helped me was that there is either a problem with me and what I’m doing, or there’s a problem with all women. One of those issues I can take steps to try and improve, the other is completely out of my control and nothing I do will ever change that.
If you are incapable or unwilling to go through an honest introspection of yourself then things will never change for you imo.
To a degree they do. It isn’t just mental health though.
Someone should told me about being an incel before I got my 3 kids… dammit. I’m spending a lot in child care.
I definitely feel like this in an entire simplication of an issue.
It’s just the old “someone does something wrong they are entirely to blame” fallacy. Or the old standby of “men are to blame for this”
I definitely feel they have some accurate readings on the world. Girls do fuck around with a small group of men who have an abnormal amount of partners, then settle years later when shes not as desirable. Girls do get to go for athletic guys, if you’re an arsehole it will get you places in life including with girls, girls only like boys that are tall and will tell that to everyone. (I genuinely think this is one of the worst everyday norms in society. Tell short men he would be attractive if he was tall is okay eventhough they can’t change it. But saying a fat girl would be hotter if she lost weight is awful, eventhough she can control that).
I’m lucky that I must have been at least somewhat in the top half of men 6ft+, good at sports, good in school, somehow I can be charismatic and funny eventhough I have wondered if I got autism. But I can definitely see the system. I can definitely agree with some of the points people have made online and see the horrible ways guys have been treated and see that people have it worse than I do.
So I don’t think they are fully to blame for all this. Some of it is society degrading, some of it is increasing competition, some of it unrealistic expecting from women, some of it is that “men are to blame” and “women are innocent” in all matters, and some of it is actually they need to sort their shit out. But putting it all on the last point and acting like they are mental isn’t right, they have a point and need to deal with it better but society also needs to treat men and boys better. Young white men in the UK are worse of than anyone when it comes to careers but you will constantly see everyone being given a leg up instead of young white males, even white males can’t apply for some jobs.
My personal opinion is we need to bring back men and boys only spaces. The best and most supportive times, where I got the most growth where in boys only clubs like scouts and the rugby club. But when you get older unless you got a guy only friendship group this doesn’t exist. I think it is a requirement for most guys mental health.
Taking from that article
" incel mental health was “through the floor”, with 20% having daily thoughts of suicide and high levels of loneliness.
In addition, he said a quarter would be offered immediate antidepressants or therapy if they completed an NHS depression screening form"
Men are lonely. I know let’s drug them. This is the point, why not advocate for some men only socialising. Plus my problems with girls was helped a lot from other guys. Guys still have to be the ones to initiate with women and my social anxiety was so high. But having you friends saying “go on. She’s looking at you. Go talk to her. Stop being a fucking pussy and just do it” Then if you get pushed back you get the “aw don’t worry about it mate, it happens to us all. Have a beer, you’ll feel better. I thought you was in, but fuck it you’ll get someone else” that support from men is I think the only thing that allowed me to talk to women as more than just friends.
You have very aptly demonstrated the core problem with the incel worldview: that women are somehow fundamentally different from men to the point that they are women first, and barely human.
The Venn diagram of traits of women and men is almost a completely overlapping circle. They aren’t some alien species with different fundamental needs, drives, and capabilities.
The problem with men-only spaces isn’t that they are only men. It is that they have been used historically to bar women from participating in things that would give them power.
You don’t need to exclude women to give men access to male friendships. It’s just that men are unused to having to work for emotional things when women are present. It’s time for them to take initiative and learn to treat women like human beings instead of objectives.
I think your core problem is that just because women are different you think that must mean they are somehow less valuable.
It is a completely reasonable position to think most men are different to most women at least in some ways.
To think the way men bond and the way women bond to be the same is completely misguided. Sure you could do it the same and you could have relationship that are built the same. But I haven’t roughhoused with my female friend or called them half the things I called my male friends.
Historical issues are no reflection of present issues. So if men need something, doesnt have to be this in particular but assuming they do need something, if women have indirectly suffered from it now men are not allowed that ever again? Why do women get women only places but men can’t, if we are so equal as you make out?
I don’t know why you are making out women are treated like objects. That is not the case at all you just pulled that out your arse to try win an argument. I’ve been friends with boys and girls my entire life. Just had female friends, had mixed groups and had men only friendship groups. The men only friendship groups have been a lot different and a lot more supportive so I think men need them. But apparently men needing anything in life is a crime. See how the incels are right with some things?
Women can roughhouse to bond. They do it all the time. But that isn’t what I’m talking about, and you know it. Apparently having female friends hasn’t taught you much about broader dynamics of women’s issues.
Women get women only places to be SAFE from men, not because they can’t handle men having access to power. The premise is very different. For example, I’d have no problem with men having male-only gyms if they were so afraid of being sexually attacked by women they couldn’t work out in peace.
The problem isn’t men needing anything, so you can take that poor pity cap off and get out of the corner. The problem is men expecting everyone else to supply them with what they need because any other option doesn’t even cross their mind.
If you seriously think women aren’t largely treated as objectives, your head is so far in the sand, there’s no hope of me digging it out. Good luck to you.
They can roughhouse to bond, but they don’t generally, not as much as boys. Also girls and boys don’t roughhouse as well together because guys are much stronger and go a lot further.
You are massively over exaggerating the rate of men on women crime in a gym. That low rate isn’t reason enough.
This is the problem you can’t see men need anything. That’s the whole point! That’s it right there, you just keep proving my point. All you can see is women need x so that must mean men need nothing. That’s not fair. I haven’t once stated women don’t need anything, I have nothing against women having female only spaces but in the spirit of equality men should equally have their own private spaces because they need them too. This is why there are women’s only refuges for domestic violence but when one gets set up for men it gets protestors outside of it and it get closed down. Men aren’t allowed anything they need.
No I don’t think women are largely treated as objects you just got a victim complex. Women can be and are treated as objects but not largely. I am also able to see that is a problem in society, but unlike you I’m also able to see that men have issues in society which is an incomprehensible concept to you for some reason.
