"These price increases have multiple intertwining causes, some direct and some less so: inflation, pandemic-era supply crunches, the unpredictable trade policies of the Trump administration, and a gradual shift among console makers away from selling hardware at a loss or breaking even in the hopes that game sales will subsidize the hardware. And you never want to rule out good old shareholder-prioritizing corporate greed.
But one major factor, both in the price increases and in the reduction in drastic “slim”-style redesigns, is technical: the death of Moore’s Law and a noticeable slowdown in the rate at which processors and graphics chips can improve."
It’s not that they’re not improving like they used to, it’s that the die can’t shrink any more.
Price cuts and “slim” models used to be possible due to die shrinks. A console might have released on 100nm, and then a process improvement comes out that means it can be made on 50nm, meaning 2x as many chips on a wafer and half the power usage and heat generation. This allowed smaller and cheaper revisions.
Now that the current ones are already on like 4nm, there’s just nowhere to shrink to.
Not to mention that even when some components do shrink, it’s not uniform for all components on the chip, so they can’t just do 1:1 layout shrinks like in the past, but pretty much need to start the physical design portion all over with a new layout and timings (which then cascade out into many other required changes).
Porting to a new process node (even at the same foundry company) isn’t quite as much work as a new project, but it’s close.
Same thing applies to changing to a new foundry company, for all of those wondering why chip designers don’t just switch some production from TSMC to Samsung or Intel since TSMC’s production is sold out. It’s almost as much work as just making a new chip, plus performance and efficiency would be very different depending in where the chip was made.
This is absolutely right. We are getting to the point where the circuit pathway is hundreds or even dozens of electrons wide. The fact that we can even make circuits that small in quantity is fucking amazing. But we are rapidly approaching laws-of-physics type limits in how much smaller we can go.
Plus let’s not forget an awful lot of the super high-end production is being gobbled up by AI training farms and GPU clusters. Companies that will buy 10,000 chips at a time are absolutely the preferred customers.
Which itself is a gimmick, they’ve just made the gates taller, electron leakage would happen otherwise.
NM has been a marketing gimmick since Intel launched their long-standing 14nm node. Actual transistor density depending on which fab you compare to is shambles.
It’s now a title / name of a process and not representative of how small the transistors are.
I’ve not paid for a CPU upgrade since 2020, and before that I was using a 22nm CPU from 2014. The market isn’t exciting (to me anymore), I don’t even want to talk about the GPUs.
Back in the late 90s or early 2000s upgrades felt substantial and exciting, now it’s all same-same with some minor power efficiency gains.
Now, maybe, but like I said - in the past this WAS what let consoles get big price cuts and size revisions. We’re not talking about since 2020, we’re talking about things like the PS -> PSOne, PS2 - PS2 Slim.
Did you read the article? That’s exactly what it said.
Consoles are just increasingly bad value for consumers compared to PCs.
Are they tho? Have you seen graphics card prices?
2060 super for 300, and then another 200 for a decent processor puts you ahead of a ps5 and for a comparable price. Games are cheaper on PC too, as well as a broader selection. https://pcpartpicker.com/list/zYGmJn here is a mid tier build for 850, you could cut the procesor down, install linux for free, and im sure youve got a computer monitor laying around somwhere… the only thing stopping you is inertia.
2060 super for 300, and then another 200 for a decent processor puts you ahead of a ps5 and for a comparable price.
you’re going to have to really scrunge up for deals in order to get psu, storage, memory, motherboard, and a case for your remaining budget of $0.
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/zYGmJn here is a mid tier build for 850
This is $150 more expensive and the gpu is half as performant as the reported PS5 pro equivalent.
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Regarding that last point: consoles don’t come with TVs either, so you don’t even have to factor that in the cost of a gaming PC.
Furthermore, many modern TVs are now being designed with gaming in mind, and thus have input lag comparable to a good gaming monitor (like LG OLEDs and most Samsungs), so the whole concept of needing a dedicated monitor just for your PC is somewhat outdated now. If your TV is good enough for console gaming, then chances are it’s good enough for PC gaming too, so long as you did your research before buying and didn’t just buy whatever had a good picture on the showroom floor.
Also there’s the fact that multiplayer tends to be free on PC, so no subscription fees to worry about. The accessories tend to be cheaper as well.
$850 is way more expensive than a PS5 though lol. Linux also means you can’t play the games that top the most played charts on the PS5 every single month of every single year.
If you’re willing to get a base model, sure. The PS5 Pro is a $700 console, and that’s not including the subscription fee for multiplayer (which doesn’t exist on PC unless you’re into MMOs).
Edit: Also every Playstation (and Xbox) game eventually comes to PC, so unless you’re so impatient that you have to play the latest games right fucking now, there’s no reason to own a console. Even Switch games are fully playable on PC, at higher resolutions and framerates as well. I sold my Switch because the games look and run so much better on my gaming rig.
Also every Playstation (and Xbox) game eventually comes to PC, so unless you’re so impatient that you have to play the latest games right fucking now, there’s no reason to own a console.
This isn’t true yet (the games thing). Playstation haven’t brought or even suggested that they’ll bring every game to PC. Microsoft are, sure, which is amazing - but Sony very much still want to protect their walled garden of consoles. Playstation, more specifically the 30% cut they get of all game sales, and their online subscription fees, are the only thing keeping Sony afloat. If sony were to go full PC like MS, Playstation and Sony would go down like the Titanic.
As for the “there’s no reason to own a console”, eh I see the point and I agree to an extent but I also disagree. My Series X’s UI is just so much better than any PC UI, not to mention the features. Quick resume for one is an absolute game changer, and it’s not on PC. Everything that you could ever want to do while playing online is just so much easier to do on a console than on a PC. I say this as someone who plays more and more on PC these days, and wishes I could boot my PC into a Xbox OS type UI.
You don’t need a top end card to match console specs, something like a 6650XT or 6700XT is probably enough. Your initial PC build will be more than a console by about 2X if you’re matching specs (maybe 3X if you need a monitor, keyboard, etc), but you’ll make it up with access to cheaper games and being able to upgrade the PC without replacing it, not to mention the added utiliy a PC provides.
So yeah, think of PC vs console as an investment into a platform.
If you only want to play 1-2 games, console may be a better option. But if you’re interested in older or indie games, a PC is essential.
I can get ps5 graphics with a $280 video card, games are often way cheaper, I can hook the pc up to my TV, and still play with a ps5 or Xbox controller, or mouse and keyboard.
I suspect next gen there will be a ps6 and Xbox will make a cheap cloud gaming box and just go subscription only.
Didn’t Google Stadia do the cloud thing and failed miserably?
The internet isn’t good enough globally to do that, and still won’t be by 2030 after the ps6/nextbox is out. Maybe the gen after next. But even then, there’s a lot of countries I could see still being patchy. Right now in Australia, Sony won’t even let you access the PS3 streaming games because they know it won’t work well enough.
You don’t need a graphics card. You can get mini PCs with decent gaming performance for cheap these days.
The ones with capable GPUs cost as much as a PS5 Pro.
By decent you meant significantly worse than console gaming performance though.
Consoles are still the king for values in gaming, even with their increasing prices.
Can confirm. I wouldn’t recommend it unless you mostly play indie games, though.
That sounds kind of like a console, no?
Edit: I mean, if the intent is gaming and only gaming, it feels like there’s a lot of overlap. Only the PC would have less support for more freedom.
My 4070 cost $300 and runs everything.
The whole PC cost around $1000, and i have had it since the Xbox One released.
You can get similar performance from a $400 steam deck which is a computer.
On what planet does a Steam Deck give 4070 performance?
And on which does a 4070 cost $300 for that matter? They cost more than a whole PS5.
I took a gamble and bought used from Ebay cuz I saw the deal on user benchmark and it’s been working great so far.
If you have a card you want search it on there and sometimes you can get some great finds.
I mean, for the price of a mid range graphics card I can still buy a whole console. GPU prices are ridiculous. Never mind everything else on top of that.
You can build a pretty capable PC for about $600. And you won’t have to pay for multiplayer.
Along with paying for multiplayer I get access to a large catalog of games as well as additional games every month. Yes they’re inaccessible if I stop paying, but that’s not really a big deal. Even all that aside, I pretty much play single player games anyway.
Also, when a game comes out I know it’ll work. No driver bugs, no messing with settings, no checking minimum and recommended specs, it just works. And it works the same for everyone on the platform. I don’t have any desire to spend a bunch of time tweaking settings to get things just right, only to have the game crash for some esoteric reason or another.
“Pretty capable” will get you dunked on in the PC gaming world. For what I’ve seen PC gamers actually recommend I could buy 2-3 modern consoles.
That’s just nonsense. Maybe some 13 year olds with rich parents think like that.
Yeah but remember to factor in that you probably already need a normal computer for non-game purposes so if you also use that for games you only have to buy one device not two
I just built a PC after not having a computer for about 5+ years.
Built it for games, did not feel like I was missing out on anything in particular except games by not having a computer. There’s a lot of things I’d rather use a computer for but these days most of what I used to do on a computer can be done just fine from a phone or tablet.
During those 5 or so years, I maybe needed to use a computer about a dozen times, and if my wife didn’t have a computer I could have just swung by a library for a bit to take care of it.
To me tablets feel like the most useless devices ever invented. Too large to carry around with you but just as stupidly limited as a phone compared to a real computer where you can actually automate some of your tasks and type on a decent keyboard and have a decent sized screen that doesn’t ruin your wrists with the weight of holding it up.
Yeah, GPU prices are kinda ridiculous, but a 7600 is probably good enough to match console quality (essentially the same as the 6650XT, so get whatever is cheaper), and I see those going for $330. It should be more like $250, so maybe you can find it closer to that amount when there’s a sale. Add $500-600 for mobo, CPU, PSU, RAM storage, and a crappy case, and you have a decent gaming rig. Maybe I’m short by $100 or so, but that should be somewhere in the ballpark.
So $900-1000 for a PC. That’s about double a console, extra if you need keyboard, monitor, etc. Let’s say that’s $500. So now we’re 3x a console.
Entry cost is certainly higher, so what do you get in return?
- deeper catalogue
- large discounts on older games (anything older than a year or so)
- emulation and other PC tasks
- can upgrade piecemeal - next console gen, just need a new CPU + GPU, and if you go AMD, you can probably skip a gen on your mobo + RAM
- can repurpose old PC once you rebuild it (my old PC is my NAS)
- generally no need to pay a sub for multiplayer
Depending on how many and what types of games you play, it may or may not be cheaper. I play a ton of indies and rarely play AAA new releases, so a console would be a lot more expensive for me. I also have hundreds of games, and probably play 40 or so in a given year (last year was 50 IIRC). If I save just $10 per game, it would be the same price as a console after 2 years, but I save far more since I wait for sales. Also, I’ll have a PC anyway, so technically I should only count the extra stuff I buy for playing games, as in my GPU.
You do make some decent points, but the console has one major aspect that PC simply does not have: convenience. I install a game and I’m playing it. No settings to tweak, no need to make sure my drivers are up to date, no need to make sure other programs I’m running are interfering with the game, none of that. If I get a game for my console I know it absolutely will work, with the exception of a simply shitty game which happens on PC too.
The other thing I wanted to touch on was the cheap games. That’s just as relevant on console nowadays. For example, I’ve been slowly buying the Yakuza games for $10-$15 each. That’s the exact same discounts I’ve seen on Steam.
For backwards compatibility, it depends on your console. Xbox is quite impressive - if you have an Xbox Series X you can play any game ever released for any Xbox all the way back to the original. Just stick in the disc. With PlayStation, it’s just PS4 games that the PS5 is backwards compatible with. Sony needs to do better. And with Nintendo… lol.
Yeah, with a PC you can do other things than gaming. For most of that you can get a cheap laptop. There are definitely edge cases where a powerful PC is needed such as development, CAD, AI, etc. But on average a gaming-spec PC is not necessary. I’m saying that as a developer and systems administrator for the past 14 years.
No settings to tweak, no need to make sure my drivers are up to date, no need to make sure other programs I’m running are interfering with the game, none of that.
I also do almost none of that on my PC. I do install updates, but that’s pretty much in the background. Then again, I use Linux, so maybe it’s different on Windows these days? I doubt it.
Most people tweak settings and whatnot because they want to, not because they need to in order to get a decent experience. I use my PC and Steam Deck largely as a console: install games then then play. That’s it.
I’ve been slowly buying the Yakuza games for $10-$15 each
Steam isn’t the only store for buying games on PC, so the chance that you can buy a given game on sale on a given day is quite a bit higher vs console, where there’s only one store. I’ve picked games up on Steam, Fanatical, or Humble Bundle, and there are several others if you’re interested in looking.
For example, here’s Yakuza 0 price history on PC, it has been $10 somewhere for almost a year. On PlayStation, it looks like it’s been $20 most of the year. I actually got it for a little under $5 about 5 years ago, and I only paid >$10 for one Yakuza game (most were $7-8).
Tons of games show up in bundles as well. I have picked up tons of games for $2-5 each (sometimes less) as part of a bundle, and that’s just not really a thing on consoles.
if you have an Xbox Series X you can play any game ever released for any Xbox all the way back to the original
Interesting, that’s pretty cool!
gaming-spec PC
Honestly, the difference between a “gaming spec” PC and one targeting only typical tasks is pretty minimal outside the GPU, assuming you’re targeting console quality. You really don’t need a high end CPU, RAM, or mobo to play games, you can match CPU perf w/ something mid-range, so $150-ish for the CPU. Likewise for the GPU, you can get comparable quality for something in the $300-400 range, probably less now since the PS5 and XBox Series consoles are kind of old.
But that’s assuming you need console quality. You can get by with something a bit older if you turn the settings down a bit.
If you want to save cash, you have a lot more options on PC vs consoles. If you want to go all out, you have a lot more options on PC vs consoles for maxing out performance. PC gaming is as expensive as you make it. I used the same PC for playing games for something like 10 years before getting an upgrade (upgraded the GPU once), because it played all the games I wanted it to. If I have a console, chances are the newer games will stop supporting my older console a year or so after the new one launches, so I don’t have any options once the console goes out of support outside of buying a new one.
That said, there are a ton of caveats:
- don’t buy laptops for gaming, they are way too expensive and can’t really be upgraded (Framework exists, sure, and I think eGPUs still do, but that’s going to be expensive)
- don’t buy a pre-built PC if you want to save money - if you DIY your PC, you can save a bit of cash, but more importantly, you’re more likely to upgrade it vs replace it later on
- you can spend a ton on PC gaming, if you follow whatever the influencer trends are (everyone needs a top-end GPU for $2k or whatever, plus a monitor > 200 hz)
- consoles have a much better couch co-op experience
I have a Switch for the couch co-op experience, as well as ease of use for my kids to just put in a game and play, and a PC for most of my personal gaming time (I also have a Steam Deck so I can play in bed or on vacation). I have something like 20 Switch games and hundreds of PC games.
Tbh the only consoles I’ve been really interested in lately are the switch and steam deck, simply because they’re also mobile devices.
The Steam Deck is the only decent console because it’s not locked down.
That’s because it’s not a console.
The Steam Deck is basically a PC. You can get mini PCs with APUs of a similar performance for very low prices these days. That won’t perform like a current gen console but it’s a cheap gaming machine with a huge selection of low cost games and you won’t have to pay for multiplayer.
And those mini PC’s are mobile with built-in screens and controls?
That would be handhelds. Mini PCs are desktop devices. They often use the same processors as handhelds and laptops, though.
Oh man you’re so close
I mean after Valve released the Steam Deck, Asus, Lenovo, MSI–to name just a few–followed suit with at least an iteration. Asus has the Ally and Ally X, Lenovo now have 3 models, and MSI only has 1.
I can’t recall if there are any other big brands handheld PCs, but there’s definitely Chinese ones.
This article doesn’t factor in the new demand that is gobbling up all the CPU and GPU production: Ai server farms. For example, Nvidia, that was once only making graphic cards for gamers, has been trying to keep up with global demand for Ai. The whole market is different, then toss tarrifs and the rest of top.
I wouldn’t blame moores law death, technology is still advancing, but per usual, based on demand.
AI has nothing to do with it. Die shrinks were the reason for “slim” consoles and big price drops in the past. Die shrinks are basically a thing of the past now.
Not exactly, but smaller nodes are getting really expensive. So they could make a “slim” version with a lower power unit, but it would likely cost more than the original.
technology is still advancing
Actually not really: performance per watt of the high end stuff has been stagnating since Ampere generation. NVidia hides it by changing models in its benchmarks or advertising raw performance without power figures.
Idk, seems like Germany is making progress.
So now we can finally go back to good old code optimization, right? Right? (Padme.jpg)
We’ll ask AI to make it performant, and when it breaks, we’ll just go back to the old version. No way in hell we are paying someone
Damn. I hate how it hurts to know that’s what will happen
Is it Moores law failing or have we finally reached the point where capitalists are not even pretending to advance technology in order to charge higher prices? Like are we actually not able to make things faster and cheaper anymore or is the market controlled by a monopoly that sees no benefit in significantly improving their products? My opinion has been leaning more and more towards the latter since the pandemic.
This has little to do with “capitalists” and everything to do with the fact that we’ve basically reached the limit of silicon.
While blaming anything and everything on “capitalism” is disingenuous, it really does have to do with a lack of competition in the space. None of the incumbents have any incentive to really put much effort into improving the performance of gaming GPUs. PC CPUs face a similar issue. They’re good enough for the vast majority of users. There is no sizable market that would justify spending huge amounts of money on developing new products. High end gaming PCs and media production workstations are niche products. The real money is made in data centre products.
I don’t agree. It is capitalism, but not in a bad way. Simply put it is economy logic. Chip market has shifted from consumer market to the enterprise market.
So because the supply is limited, the demand has gone way up, and enteprise market has a lot, a mean a lot of money to spare buying, because it is an investment for them and not entertainment.
Also some bad capitalist tacticts in other areas, hard drives for example, that the big players reduced production to keep prices from falling. They cotribute to the problem, but they are not the major factor.
Fine we reached the limit… But why the price gouging lol
Because people continue to accept that price by agreeing to pay it. The price of a product is dictated by what people are willing to pay for it. If the price is so low that the seller isn’t happy with it, they don’t sell it and stop making it.
In other words, if you think Nintendo prices are bullshit price gouging, then vote with your wallet. With enough votes, the prices come down or the company goes under. You don’t have that luxury of choice when it comes to groceries or shelter, but you absolutely do when it comes to luxury entertainment expenses. Make them earn your money.
I wish people would apply this to many other industries as well. A company will rip people off the first chance that they get.
What do you classify as “ripping people off” when it comes to pricing?
Not OP, but probably price gouging? Especially regarding things where you aren’t afforded the reasonable opportunity to make an informed decision (healthcare, baby formula plus necessary clean water). Also maybe regional monopolies (internet service) or pretty much anything involving an event or venue (ticket pricing or cost of a slice of pizza or a can of beer at a festival).
In all of these examples, you likely don’t have a heads-up or the chance to choose something else. Admittedly, most of the examples off the top of my head were unnecessary luxury spending, but how in the blue fuck is it okay that any of them are literally a situation of “pay me whatever price I decide or else a person will die”?
Pretty fucked up if you ask me.
Moore’s law started failing in 2000, when single core speeds peaked, leading to multi core processors since. Memory and storage still had ways to go. Now, the current 5nm process is very close to the limits imposed by the laws of physics, both in how small a laser beam can be and how small a controlled chemical reaction can be done. Unless someone can figure a way to make the whole chip fabrication process in less steps, or with higher yield, or with cheaper machines or materials, even if at 50nm or larger, don’t expect prices to drop.
Granted, if TSMC stopped working in Taiwan, we’d be looking at roughly 70% of all production going poof, so that can be considered a monopoly (it is also their main defense against China, the “Silicon Shield”, so there’s more than just capitalistic greed at play for them)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po-nlRUQkbI - How are Microchips Made? 🖥️🛠️ CPU Manufacturing Process Steps | Branch Education
Very interesting! I was aware of the 5nm advancements and the limitations of chip sizes approaching the physical limitations of the material but I had been assuming since we worked around the single core issue a similar innovation would appear for this bottleneck. It seems like the focus instead was turned towards integrating AI into the gpu architecture and cranking up the power consumption for marginal gains in performance instead of working towards a paradigm shift. Thanks for the in depth explanation though, I always appreciate an opportunity to learn more about this type of stuff!
Por que no los dos?
Ironic the image is of a switch, like Nintendo has been on the cutting edge at all in the last 20+ years
game graphics and design peaked in 2008. N64 was more optimized than anything that came after. Im so over current gen, and last gen and the gen before that too. Let it all burn. :)
Edit: Furthermore,
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/pictrs/image/222c26df-19d9-4fce-9ce3-2f3dcffefc60.webp
Was about to say this too. Can’t tell a difference between most games made in 2013 vs 2023.
The consoles unless you root or jailbreak them are too restrictive anyway. For older games you can just use an emulator on your PC or mobile.
Also they’re not going to play Silksong any better than a ten year old console.
Wtf, that headline is fucking backwards thinking and capitalistic. If you’re not greedy and don’t have unnecessary high standards that doesn’t make a game, you’re the problem. Sorry not sorry but gamers demand and the companies are at fault here.
That’s why I play using a PC and not a console. Though PC components have also been overpriced for years.
