TLDR: StartAllBack, ExplorerPatcher and some other projects are being blocked on 24H2.
One more reason to switch to Linux
The Microsoft devs have time to do shit like this, but haven’t yet gotten the Settings screen as functional as Control Panel was two decades ago…
Do NOT blame the devs for this. They are not the ones to decide the direction of the product or the priority of the tickets they work. Blame upper management for making these poor decisions and the product managers for being spineless and not pushing back.
But Steve Ballmer told me “Developers Developers Developers Developers”
Are you saying that was a lie?
He also squealed IIRC
Does anyone else wonder which medication Steve Ballmer was prescribed but didn’t take? He always struck me as a walking check engine light.
Relevant XKCD:
Oh was he an alcoholic? See I got more cocaine vibes out of the man.
Maybe they are pushing back, which is why Control Panel still exists?
I’m pretty sure everybody knows it’s not just a couple of developers by themselves churning out windows. Even the project managers are just following orders. Marketing sets the tone upper management picks the path.
Yeah . . . marketing – the department famous for being able to steer the flagship product of a trillion-dollar company.
He said marketing sets the tone (not the path), and that is absolutely true. Many products are killed or poorly received due to the tone poor marketing set.
This is just nonsense that internet denizens tell themselves because they don’t like decisions made in board rooms and can’t conceptualize a business development team. Marketing is following orders just as much as some rando code monkey.
The scary truth is: The CEO scribbles “CLOUD 1ST”, “FOCUS ON ENTERPRISE” and “WIN AS A SERVICE” on a napkin during a 5-star dinner and everyone below them tries to make sense of it and translate it into a business strategy. No one is really in charge.
Thank you. The one arena where the fault really does lie in few enough hands they fit around a biggish table, and the Internet instead makes a nebulous boogeyman out of “marketing” (don’t get it twisted either y’all, I condone zero of the bullshit marketing practices we all hate, but that’s also the same table of people) instead of the board.
It’s not even secret information. The decision came from the minds of these folks (as they understood what they asked to be measured and think to steer to measure higher numbers of whatever they’re measuring):
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Investor/corporate-governance/board-of-directors.aspx
Unfortunately, blaming the devs seems to be a recurring problem. I remember seeing this in a YouTube comment thread (paraphrased):
why can’t i insert a bible reference without it becoming blue? i write proverbs 14:23 and youtube turns it into a damn timestamp. f-cking lazy developers, they removed dislikes, now keep preventing adblock and cannot detect a simple quote??
I replied with something like:
Hey, stop blaming the devs. It was not their decision to make the unpopular changes, and making a system for detecting if a comment is referring to a book with chapter:verse syntax (not just the bible, and all their versions & translations) is not something they would pay for. For the record, you can refer to Proverbs 14:23 or any other verse without making it a link. I can show you how but first repent and apologize for undervaluing people’s hard work.
(Yes, there’s just a ZWSP after the colon. It can be mapped to a key combo if one uses it often.) He did not answer but maybe didn’t see my reply buried way underneath – it was YouTube comments, after all. Legend says that bible references in his video description keep messing up his worship chapters.
i think its because these words are used interchangeably.
when people say ‘devs’ i believe they mean the microsoft team in general
The devs are the people who, after seeing everything that Microsoft’s done for the past 30+ years, decided to take a job there anyway.
That’s not a very valid argument.
First and foremost, most devs probably see it as a job and they do what they’re told. They don’t have the power to refute decisions coming from above.
Second, in this economy where jobs are scarer than a needle in multiple haystacks, people are desperate to get a job.
Third, yes, there may be some Microsoft (M$) fan-people who end up being devs at M$. Sure, they may willingly implement the things upper management may request. However, I’m not sure whether that’s true for most of the people who work at M$.
Your comment suggests to shift the blame to the devs who implement the features that upper management request for. Don’t shoot the (MSN) messenger.
You overestimate the agency of a developer.
The fact that windows is now becoming Apple 2.0 is kinda crazy ngl lol, thought shouldn’t be surprising cuz every tech company is now doing enshittification at this point.
And yet they’re not even becoming apple in the areas where apple does well - UX consistency, battery optimisations, a reasonably well-curated app store, etc
who the hell needs an app store on PC?
Linux does a centralized, curated software repository with support for updates and it’s loved.
Windows does a centralized, curated software repository with support for updates and people question why it’s needed.
That’s because the windows one came a decade+ too late, has a bunch of restrictions (particularly at launch when you couldn’t even put desktop apps in it), and generally doesn’t fit with the ecosystem. One of the reason Linux package managers are loved is it is a one-stop-shop for all app and OS updates. The Microsoft Store doesn’t do that, nor can you add third party repositories to it (like you can in Linux) in order to attempt to make it a one-stop-shop.
A big hint here is it’s called the Microsoft Store. It doesn’t perform the same function or achieve the same goals as a Linux package manager. And that is on purpose.
At least they made a good choice with
winget.♥️
wingetmy beloved ♥️
I mean, there’s lots of things in OSes that you don’t need but are very useful to have. I love having access to Paint when I use Windows, but it’s certainly not a hard OS requirement.
I imagine you’re reeling at the idea of an app store on PC primarily because you know the Microsoft store to be absolute dog shit, and you’d be right, because it’s a steaming turd. It’s full of crap, fraudulent paid copies of open source software, outdated software because the dev hasn’t bothered to update the WinStore listing, etc.
If you look over at the Linux world and installing apps is generally as simple as: open the software centre, search for software, press the install button, you’re done. Updates will be done either manually or automatically through the software centre, for all of your apps.
Now, contrast that with what people actually do on Windows (because they sure as fuck aren’t using the MS store): open your web browser (hey btw we noticed you’re not using Edge, do you want to switch???), search for the software, make sure to click the link to the correct website (which isn’t always obvious if you don’t know the developer name), navigate to the download page, select Windows [version] x86_64, open your downloads folder, run the installer with admin permissions, go through an installer, delete the installer file, delete the shortcut it added to your desktop. Updates will be handled by an updater service for each individual app and most love to start running immediately after booting your machine.
A better app store is absolutely something Microsoft should be looking into
that’s true. on Linux, I used the software center or whatever. Microsoft store tho? never
Thing is, I think Microsoft has a vested interest/legal responsibility to their shareholders to make sure the Windows Store is as constipated as possible.
They can’t have Firefox or Chrome in there, they have to push their browser, Edge, because their shareholders will sue them if they facilitate installing someone else’s spyware instead of their own. They don’t put old versions of Solitaire or FreeCell in there, because the new ones run ads. Third parties are either as evil as Microsoft, or they won’t touch their store with a barge pole.
So what’s in the Microsoft store? Office, Minecraft Bedrock Edition, and a bunch of worthless crap you’ve never heard of.
One tech company said “Hey, I can see the bottom!” and every other tech company replied “Race you there!”
They’re not becoming Apple 2.0, Apple is becoming Microsoft 2.0. If you look into the history of Microsoft and Windows, you’ll see that they’ve always been this way, but have received more pushback in the past. Microsoft is the OG tech giant empire.
They’re not exactly “being blocked” but rather the legacy ability to tell explorer.exe to load the older style Taskbar, which those apps load then modify, is going away. I’m not defending this nor do I like it, but it would be like saying some Linux distro is BLOCKING customization because some legacy app dependent on Xorg will not work after they switch to Wayland.
They’re not exactly “being blocked”
Simply renaming the executable works to re-enable Start All Back. They are being intentionally blocked by Microsoft.
Like in the case of StartAllBack, you can bypass the block by simply renaming the executable to something else. If you want to upgrade to a newer build, delete the app, update your system, and then launch it using a renamed executable.
Not if you’re using the preview build, where the entire functionality is removed. The warning is just a preemptive preparation for beta users. The bottom of the article indirectly mentions this.
But sure, downvote me.
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The article is actually incomplete. Some insider builds already lack the old taskbar, it can’t be invoked and if an application relies on it you simply get a crash.
This is not new behavior from Windows. When legacy features are going to be removed, they do stagger updates when users have known software conflicts installed, they also might throw warnings. This is exactly what we are seeing now.
Though the fact this small article is just reporting on Reddit information rather than testing insider builds is not my fault nor my concern.
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sounds like a 21st century version of quack3.exe.
They are, to the best of Microsoft security professionals’ abilities
Just kidding, the devs are probably using ExplorerPatcher themselves and are sabotaging this asshole move
A Microsoft representative (?) opened an issue for Explorer Patcher:
Hi Team,
This is to let you know that Win10 taskbar code is removed. And if use continue to use ExplorePatcheron Windows GE Build, they will see a crash. You only need to adjust the setup exe name to get around the block in your new version. We will continue to block ANY version that crashes Explorer.
Please let me know if you have any question.
Thanks Michelle
Makes sense to me.
Didn’t know that. Thanks for the info.
Shame somebody removed that code. At least RetroBar will still work. Hopefully.
If only there was a way to know who removed the code
it is a mystery 👻
Good news hidden in the article:
Like in the case of StartAllBack, you can bypass the block by simply renaming the executable to something else. If you want to upgrade to a newer build, delete the app, update your system, and then launch it using a renamed executable.
@OP: People who are modifying Windows this deeply are not going to switch to Linux. If you’re going through this much trouble, you’ve already tried Linux several times and left disillusioned every time. Linux does not compete with Windows as a desktop operating system and I doubt it ever will. It simply does not offer the compatibility and ease of use (including for power users) that Windows - for all its faults - has.
People who are modifying Windows this deeply are not going to switch to Linux
Yeah. Not just to avoid a quick file rename.
Although, I started out as someone who modified Windows that deeply, and I ended up on Linux.
One of my reasons for switching was when my favorite Windows mod stopped working, and there was no recourse.
This sounds like it goes beyond that and the Windows team is actively pushing modders out?
I think this will have an effect, and we will get more migrations.
Yep, Microsoft is also blocking some github scripts for disabling telemetry,etc. They are just making it worse for themselves
What do you mean?
Are these scripts being distributed via github or disabling telemetry on github?
I mean PowerShell scripts used to disable telemetry services on Windows.
That’s why you block the telemetry at the router level as a big fat fuck you.
I switched when a Windows update for the third time in a month forcibly changed the default pdf and html file association to edge.
That was like 5 years ago, and I’ve never looked back.
Anyone could just as easily say:
Windows does not compete with macOS as a desktop operating system and I doubt it ever will. It simply does not offer the compatibility and ease of use (including for power users) that macOS - for all its faults - has.
Windows isn’t compatible with Final Cut Pro, has a lackluster implementation of Adobe Photoshop comparatively, and has no support for common cli shells such as bash or zsh (without creating an emulated subsystem ala Cygwin or WSL). Setting up a Windows desktop for my day-to-day tasks is a huge pain as opposed to macOS or a Linux-based desktop OS.
You are right about some points, though what the original comment meant by compatibility is probably industry software.
People who are modifying Windows this deeply are not going to switch to Linux. If you’re going through this much trouble, you’ve already tried Linux several times and left disillusioned every time. Linux does not compete with Windows as a desktop operating system and I doubt it ever will. It simply does not offer the compatibility and ease of use (including for power users) that Windows - for all its faults - has.
Well that’s a take
I think a lot of people have a few killer apps that just don’t work on Linux even with WINE. Hell, I’ve heard that VR is not worth it on Linux. There are edge cases like that, that need to be sorted some way. Hopefully whatever Valve is doing wrt their supposed standalone VR headset helps there.
I think this is the real answer for those that have the knowledge on how to switch but dont. Windows steadily eroding the ability to customize its user experience is actually a driving factor in why a lot of us are getting over our familiarity bias and laziness to switch to Linux
People who are modifying Windows this deeply are not going to switch to Linux
I did. I was a heavy Windows customizer and deeply understand it as an operating system and target for application development. I left because, at some point, I realized the OS I (one way or another) paid for was treating me like a product instead of a user, and I resent that. I don’t like the feeling of slowly losing grip on the OS as it slides into becoming adtech tooling for marketing interests instead of the thing that runs programs for me. Despite my entrenched Windows knowledge, none of my primary personal computers run it anymore, including my gaming PC. Adaptation is a lot easier than most people expect, in my opinion.
Linux does not compete with Windows as a desktop operating system and I doubt it ever will.
Surely it doesn’t, the former is a good system, the latter is monopolistic shit supported by people with duckling syndrome and those who know no better.
EDIT:
does not offer the compatibility and ease of use (including for power users) that Windows - for all its faults - has.
I hope you don’t mean those google-fu masters by “power users”, but otherwise this wouldn’t make any sense.
Dude, the fact I like I can customize windows is EXACTLY why I’m switching to linux now that Microsoft wants a piece of that apple pie
yup
Power users are the exact people who would get the most benefit out of Linux, though. Speaking as one of them who got sick and tired of Windows’ bullshit. I’d argue Linux already very much competes with Windows, and has many advantages sourced from it being an open and not profit driven operating system.
Finally do I have an operating system that actually tries to work with me to get what I want, rather than tries to obstruct me every part of the way because “it knows best” or whatever windows tries to do.
Why is Microsoft even deciding what programs I can run on my computer in the first place? They’re not malware, they shouldn’t be doing this at all.
It’s the Windows Defender component. Blocking things that interfere with your computer is literally what it was designed and intended to do.
Why is Microsoft trying to shoot itself in the foot once again? One of the big reasons I like Windows more than MacOS is the customizability. When your market share is declining, you shouldn’t add more reasons to switch to something else.
If you like customizability,vwhy not try Linux with KDE? It’s the definition of customizability.
Joke’s on you I have a desktop running KDE Neon
Seriously though, I’m not even that big into customizability, I just like having a taskbar with icons and some critical statuses (battery percentages anyone? Even Apple learned their lesson on that one.) on any side of the screen, and I like having good versatile touchpad gestures, achievable on GNOME with a couple extensions.
Currently needing to run Windows 11 on my laptop, not by choice basically by light force of wifi drivers as I need wifi for my daily workload and dumb MediaTek have not great Linux support, there is a small in works dkms GitHub repo but that’s it
What they are doing has that upside of being an indicator of “how many people are really held by the balls with MS hand”. MS “shoots itself in the foot” and Windows users just eat it, then it can do more.
When you are a monopolist (or a bully, or a robber baron), this makes sense.
Windows 11 development was led by the UI team that led Windows 8, and a team responsible for more of the internal Windows development was responsible for Windows 10. You can kind of tell by Windows 11 being an arbitrary UI change with numerous regressions.
Turns out they don’t like people disabling their adware.
I don’t get people reacting to Windows critique with that “there are scripts and tools to disable anything”, some even have the gall to compare it to how I use Linux.
When we are talking about adware and spyware right from the vendor, who has the figurative “make shit really mandatory” button. Who is all-powerful there.
Wow, now I’m really glad I switched to Linux. Windows? Never again.
- Microsoft blocks app with major security and performance concerns from Russian dev.
Fixed that headline for ya, big guy.
Hmm. Russia or Russian programmers were not in the article. The only reason was performance:
It is possible that Microsoft blocked those apps due to a higher number of crashes on build 26100, which is allegedly version 24H2 RTM build.
You realize you can get info from other sources right? Not just this one article?
Site your source
What? You can’t do simple research now?
Dev: https://msfn.org/board/profile/36858-tihiy/
Dyor. This is Lemmy, not reddit.
Regardless, always cite source
What’s your source on that? That you always have to cite source? Not a rule on lemmy.
Checked your comment history, you make many claims and cite no sources. So what is this really about?
Seems like you want to argue for the sake of arguing.
Good luck my bro
Thanks for the link, but I still do not see where it says “Microsoft blocked apps because of Russian dev.”
The dev says that it’s related to depreciated features, not the country of origin:
Well, this has to do with myriad feature flags around copilot and working area hacks MS is doing. But generally classic taskbar is dead code and 24H2 is going bring only degradations and pain.
Aaand another reason to stay with 10.
I give until 2027 for win 10 pc that cannot upgrade to become large botnet
Windows 10 is filled with shit decisions too. And it won’t be supported much longer anyway. If you want to keep using Windows, but not 11, it’s going to be advisable that you use it offline only.
You’re right on all counts.
And I am not happy about about any of this.
Of yeah, and then there is this: Microsoft’s draconian Windows 11 restrictions will send an estimated 240 million PCs to the landfill when Windows 10 hits end of life in 2025
Hope FTC does something before this deadline hits.
Amazing how Windows die-hards will go to literally any lengths not to switch to Linux.
The moment Adobe Creative Cloud works on Linux, I’ll switch. Until then I’ll have to stick with Windows.
I still can’t believe Linux only have 5% of OS market share
I can. Do you really think computer savvy people are the majority of computer users?
It’s painful that this needs to be mentioned, and that people will actively argue that it’s not true…
I can too. A lot of people don’t know Linux exists
The majority of desktop users are within organizations with people who administer all of the PCs. They use Windows server to do this, which is actually mind boggling, but they do it somehow. It would be easier to do it with Linux, but most admins are stuck with what tools that already have.
There is nothing tech savy in linux, if you use the right distro. Moreover, mostly tech savy people customize their OS and not average users. If an user can install an app for customizing, then linux is no more different.
You say this.
But its just not true.
It took my of all of a day with Linux mint before she needed to open up a command line and do things.
I love Linux . i would kill for Linux. Have killed for linux. And wil kill again for Linux. What’s that, tux? Sudo for person in store; do “$festoon_the_walls_with_their_guts”? If [[ -e $police ]]; then -eval sudo_works_in_real_,life; find / -type “*god” -exec /platonic_root/deicide police surviving_bystanders news_crews: fi; done
You’re always looking out for me bud. Sure I’ll do it.
While that’s true but some DE nowadays make it easier for general consumer to install/using Linux as their main os, I think some people even scared of Linux and didn’t wanna touch it and that’s a shame
In either case, you still need to install a new OS, which is already a technical hurdle in itself, and know enough command line to fix things when they break/update packages, or to access things that might not have a UI.
Yeah, maybe someday Windows become so bad that people will do anything to get rid of it, I confess that I’m still using Windows 10 to play most of my games but I will ditch Windows once it reached EOL (I use Open SUSE for web browsing and documents editing and it’s been great so far)
You don’t really need any skills to use modern Linux. I would argue that it’s easier to use than Windows for someone who has basic googling skills. Windows have an annoying habit of getting in the way of the user and making things much harder than they need to be. For example, needing to use the registry editor for basic configuration options.
No regular Joe will ever need to use regedit, you’re thinking with yourself as reference, the majority of computer users aren’t going to configure shit. They just get a computer with Windows installed and they start using it.
While Mixrosoft produces questionable software, they are really good at ugly marketing strategies.
It is imo literally unbelievable that e.g. the EU is not enforcing an own OS (that the EU and not another country can control) on the EU members administrations and militaries. Microsoft is good with stuff like this.
The volumes of cash that Microsoft throw at retailers (custom builders / big box) is astronomical. Worked for a relatively small retailer with some international buying power. EOFY “MDF” from Microsoft was an absurd figure.
Our builders would belt out 3 - 6 machines per day, depending on complexity of the custom build, the pre-built machines were in the 6+ per day range.
Considering the vast majority of those machines were running windows (some sold without an os), from a quick estimate after too many beers we were out of pocket 10% at most of the bulk buy price for licence keys after our “market development funds” came through.
It’s fucking crook.
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They are forced to use Windows, like me
My last two jobs require(d) me to run windows. At one, I spent 95% of my time in a Linux VM so it was more tolerable.
That’s a good option, only if you have a powerful PC. Mine is not enough powerful for WSL to run
Usually just VirtualBox VM’s – i’ve never touched WSL except for the original version way back in the 90’s I think.
I can’t even use virtual box at work, every time anyone downloads it, Oracle sics their licensing trolls at us, ignoring the fact that it’s free for all outside of the extension pack
I’m STILL pissed off that Oracle bought Sun
Are you guys installing the extension pack? That’s when the licensing weenies get to work. My old job ended up blocking oracle.com which was really fun for trying to read java docs. I would have to set up an ssh tunnel to my home server in order to download vbox release.
When i first started there, I did, just out of habit, but when i was approached about it, I removed it without hesitation… Never did download it or install it again, but every time i downloaded the main program, within a day I’d get someone saying Oracle was coming after us again and ultimately we just stopped allowing it altogether because having to deal with Oracle’s bullshit just wasn’t worth it, I’d rather pay VMware than deal with Oracle’s bullshit for a free product that they can’t figure out their own license for
Well… Now VMware is owned by Broadcom and is apparently being dismantled from the inside so i may be looking for a third option soon (that isn’t HyperV… It works fine but I’ve always found it hit or miss for Linux, which is like 100% of what I virtualize on my desktop)
in the 90’s
Woah. You’re off by a lot. WSL isn’t even 10 years old.
I was thinking of the earlier incantation called Windows Services for Unix.
I hate it when software requires incantations to run
The irony is that people create these tools mostly because they’re frustrated by the limited customisation options provided by default. If Microsoft ever listens to feedback, it’s quite limited, and it takes ages for the new stuff get implemented; moreover very often you just about get used to something and the rug gets pulled from under your feet.
It’s insane that they can’t display the same identical task bar on 2 screens 20+ years after enabling support for multiple displays. It’s frustrating to no end having to look for stuff all over the place.
The lack of a small taskbar mode was all it took for me to never upgrade. Just shows MS doesn’t care about its users.
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One reason not to switch to linux: I want to play PCVR with my Quest 2. It has a really bad stutter when moving around using the only tool that works: ALVR, and this makes VR unplayable. I have not found an actual solution, just a handful of speculative issues threads that go silent as to what is the answer if any.
User won’t switch to Linux because of lack of software support, company won’t support Linux because of lack of user, such a vicious circle
The solution is to probably not use the Quest 2. And that’s a pretty crappy solution.
But VR on Linux sucks in general, so if you really need VR, it’s probably best to stick with Windows. I really hope things improve because I’d really like to play with VR, but I’m unwilling to use Windows or make a Meta account, so I’m sitting on the sidelines until a reasonably affordable headset ($500-ish) with reasonably good app support on Linux is available.
Laughs loudly in perfectly working steam index on Linux.
Perfectly?
What games or experiences do you play? I’m basically in VRChat all day with OVR and XSOverlay.
I’m eager to know what workarounds you needed to do in order to get “perfect working order”
The only issue I seem to have is when one of the frequent Nvidia drivers is updated I need to re-run flatpak update to pull updates manually, and occasionally I have to disconnect and reconnect the display cable or I get a hardware address issue. That’s it. Oh and the beacons don’t properly sleep/wake in Linux they just stay on.
I usually play
- super hot
- beat saber
- moss
- Alyx
- google earth
- redout
- star wars squadrons
Never tried VR chat. I use VR and games to get away from people not closer 😂
I’m sure there are pain points I’m glossing over, controller config I remember can be a pain, as most aren’t developed with index in mind. In my mind these are artefacts of adopting any new technology before it’s form factor is standardized and ubiquitous.
So “perfectly” for me, now that I’ve come to know what it’s prerequisites are.
Oh I have to do this, oh I have to do that. Doesn’t sound perfectly to me 🤣
You’re absolutely right. You should 100% stay on windows, where it all works the very first time and forevermore! I never see anyone posting about issues with that OS! Enjoy!
Delusional. You Linux fanboys are something else.
Pico 4, though instead of Meta it’s the Chinese
I didn’t get my headset new, I got it on ebay for cheap. I also made a Meta account specifically for the Quest and nothing else.
ALVR works on Linux with Quest 2, BeatSaber works fine, dont know much about other games.
Yeah you should stay on windows and never check out Linux. Hopefully ques too is great.
I can’t use win11 without explorerpatcher, if it stops working I won’t know what to do
--------------------------------- / Got a problem with your PC? \ \ Want to make that NaN problems? / --------------------------------- \ \ .--. |o_o | |:_/ | // \ \ (| | ) /'\_ _/`\ \___)=(___/
