This is a large album of images from the protests in Beijing in 1989. It gives the historical context for the events leading up to the “tank man” photo, and what happened after.
Warning: blood, gore, visible injuries, death
I uploaded this pictures in my old Xiaomi cloud account. It took almost 100 MB out of 5 GB free space. Other 4.9 GB is taken by Winnie the Pooh pictures and memes about Xi.
I’ll never understand how the tankies can claim it never happened when there’s so many pictures like this available.
Even Lemmygrad says there were 300 deaths. I really can’t find anyone saying it straight up didn’t happen, not even the CPC itself. The closest is saying that the massacre happened outside the square, which seems more of a technicality that both “sides” rely on to pretend the other is making stuff up. Ie, Lemmygrad claiming others know nothing because there was no massacre on the square itself and it all happened outside, while others see that as outright denial.
Lemmygrad also believes it was CIA-backed and turned a pro-Maoist, anti-Dengist protest into an anti-Maoist, anti-Dengist, pro-Liberal Democracy/Capitalist protest, which I would say ultimately doesn’t change that protestors were murdered even if that was true.
I think it’s helpful to see what people are actually saying, you can better argue it to be an atrocity that way. For example, as above, even if it was steered in a different direction by western forces, it still had popular support and as such was still an unjust escalation of force into massacre.
The massacre is undeniable.
Interestingly, and having done a bit of extra reading, the current Western position is that the killings didn’t actually happen in the square itself, but in the surrounding streets as the army was pushing through Beijing to reach Tiananmen Square. Some of the initial reports that came out were evidently erroneous. Again, that’s internal communications in the USA acknowledging that. But still very awful and hundreds of people killed according to that version of events.
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Yes. They try and minimize it as much as they possibly can. I’ve seem them claim on here that nobody was killed and that nothing happened at Tiananmen square.
The bloodbath happened on side streets, the square itself was cleared by intimidation alone.
The one important name to know regarding the background and politics of all this is Hu Yaobang. Party hard-liners were happy being a faction of the party and struggling things out with other factions, students had the gall to very openly support the reformist faction, though, and marching onto the square in the wake of Hu Yaobang’s death would’ve set precedent that you can just march onto the square and demand basic decency. Tankies can’t have that, they gotta tank, and thus the hardliners took over leadership and reverted course away from the reformists for a decade or two.
It was decided that “The-Side-Streets-Around-Tiananmen-Square Massacre” was a little too wordy
I mean yes but no the salient point for the Chinese would be that the army did in fact not roll over all the students on the square, they “merely” intimidated them out of there after massacring themselves through barricades Peking locals had erected to protect the students. I say massacring not so much because those people didn’t right-out attack the army, but because the fighting was completely one-sided we’re talking pretty much fists and stones against machine guns and tanks.
There were plenty of people within the CCP who wanted to see much more blood, that there was so relatively little blood is thanks to Peking locals (this time less militant ones) bringing rice and fried noodles to the army camping out in front of the city while explaining to them that (unlike what they had heard from the party) those weren’t counter-revolutionary bourgeois foreign agents on the square, but simply reformists.
That’s why that point is rather important, the Chinese people might not be saying it out loud but “there was a massacre on the square” implies that the people did nothing to influence the situation. They very much did and avoided a much worse calamity.
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So because you haven’t personally seen it yourself it didn’t happen? Ok.
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So because you have seen it but don’t have proof it still totally happened?
Still they give counterfactual assertions the same way Trump supporters give counter factual assertions about their lame coup attempt on Jan. 6. “It was a secret plot by someone else!!”
Thanks for sharing. Every time I see a picture of the Tiananmen Square massacre I get shivers. That man is one of the most amazing icons of resistance against oppression. I like to think of myself as brave but I’m genuinely skeptical if I’d have the courage to stand in front of a tank that way.
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Oh wow a .ml account denying Chinese atrocities how rare oh my gosh.
I like when they speak up because then I can tag them “Certified Tankie™” on sync
The block button also works great.
I don’t like to miss out on the conversation. But keeping labels makes it easier to call out idiots
There’s too much content to pay attention to even when you block all tankies and other extremists. My blocklist is around 550 users long and there’s no shortage of content - just a slightly better noise to signal ratio.
One scenario that worries me:
100% of existing users block unpleasant posters. New user joins. New user sees hateful/ignorant comments with zero contradictions in replies. New user assumes many existing users are hateful/ignorant, when in reality it’s a small muted minority. New user leaves never to return.
Potential partial solution/community contribution:
Resilient users in excellent health (🧠) block no one, replying to lampoon jerks as necessary.
Oh I have posts from .ml and several others blocked on here. The comments I don’t mind
Someone should make an extension that cross references account names with ones on the various defederated instances, whenever there’s a comment like that, I check Hexbear for their username, and literally every single time I have so far they have an account there too
That particular guy is an OG first wave r/ChapoTrapHouse banning refugee (the reason it exists, its original name was Chapo.Chat), Hexbear account is 4 years old with over 3k comments
How do you tag them?
In sync for lemmy, go to a person’s profile, and scroll the options to the right until you see the tag option
Thank you.
I’m starting to feel like I made my account on the wrong instance if those people are the average
Yeah, I’m sorry to say that’s looking more and more like the case. Lemmygrad and Hexbear were the most obvious and have been either defederated or blocked by most, and it seems like the users have made their way to ML.
I was just about to look into what options I had for blocking all users from the ML instance automatically, and I’m sure others are considering the same.
For your edification, the people spouting pro-CCP propaganda like those in this post are called “tankies”.
After getting a bigotry removal for even mentioning Tankies exist, I blocked all .ml instances. Dont have time to deal with Tankie snowflakes
I was just about to look into what options I had for blocking all users from the ML instance automatically, and I’m sure others are considering the same.
Not sure how it works on the web interface, but in the app I’m using (Thunder), you click on the 3 dots next to the upvote arrow, choose instance and then block instance.
ML is a lot better than Hexbear and Lemmygrad. There are certainly some tankies in there such as the user above but if you visit their communities its mostly just lefties.
ML is a lot better than Hexbear and Lemmygrad.
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, that’s a low bar.
I’d argue the .ml stance on the israeli Genocide on Gaza and non censorship of articles debunking Hasbara was a lot more correct than the .world one especially at the start of the Genocide. Even now only mainstream Western outlets are condoned no matter how well sourced articles are.
If the user above posted the same take on .ml he wouldn’t be showered in updoots either. There sure are some outlier users but .ml and Hexbear/Lemmygrad are completely incomparable.
I can go to .ml right now and see comments like these, just the most insane tankie takes!!:
Yeah.
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Do you prefer black or brown boot? Or some other? Can you give me a top 5?
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Atrocity denial is not welcome here, and neither are the people who engage in it.
I agree but I think it’s too bad that someone needs to choose between deleting a comment to stop the spread of lies and propaganda and the other option of leaving it in place so people can see it. I think it’s helpful to see that people like this exist, it helps you understand why people are opposed to these types of people and who is being called a tankie in a negative way.
Agree, but also deleted comments are in the modlog, easy to read them
Also, a lot of apps allow you to read a deleted/removed comment by clicking on the reply button.
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Here I thought I was condemning it as unambiguously a genocide and advocating for the complete removal of military aid from Israel. Silly me. I’m glad you’re here to correct me on what I believe.
Israel has lately left very little ambiguity in their actions, though. Killing civilians trying to get aid packages is quite literally forcing people to starve to death.
putting aside that i don’t fully agree on that:
but he said he saw it unambiguously? what’s the Point of your Comment?
The point is he can’t read.
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Man, I’ve been on both since the beginning. I was calling the Palestinian genocide a genocide before October 7th and the current, heightened phase of the genocide. I’ve been advocating removal of military aid from Israel since I was in my damn teens.
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Know the signs of stroke!
I think you dropped your whataboutism.
Dude why are you digging your grave deeper like this? You are losing your cool and looking a fool. When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me. Shall I go on? No, I shan’t.
Even the Chinese government says a couple hundred civilians died. “At the end of June 1989, the Chinese government said 200 civilians and several dozen security personnel had died. Other estimates have ranged from hundreds to many thousands. In 2017, newly released UK documents revealed that a diplomatic cable from then British Ambassador to China, Sir Alan Donald, had said that 10,000 had died.”
I honestly don’t know what your goal is with that post but I choose to believe the many sources (Chinese and international) that show a different history than what you’d have me believe. At least hundreds died with thousands more injured, and that’s the low end of the estimates.
Something something libtard something. Commumism killed bazillons, libtard thinks. Therefore commumism didn’t kill anyone. Also do you even support Palestine?
What’s a libtard?
The strawman that the point of view they’re satirizing (I think) uses.
Are you being paid, really fucking gullible, or just plain evil?
.ml is a shit hole instance. Everyone rightfully ridiculing this post risks getting preemptively banned on ml because their dipshit tankie mods are that soft.
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BING CHILLING
Jfc, imagine loving the taste of boot this much… 🤮
Hey! You’re the same AH trying to get people to not vote Biden, because you’re such an enlightened Democrat. Didn’t take long for your true colors to start showing lol. Western narratives lol… Okay.
Still not sure if your a Russian/Chinese national trying to act like an American, a piss poor troll, or just a truly uneducated bigot. What next mate, you want to start denying the Holocaust was real? 😂
Go fuck yourself.
Typical lies from Lemmy.ml.
Don’t forget to report them.
Can you imagine how funny it would be if anybody actually believed this take?
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Thanks for this. China keeps trying to wipe away this event by having any image deleted. It needs to be reposted and seen often.
There are diplomatic cables from Australia and Britain about the massacre that have been declassified. Shit was fucked and I don’t know if the cables are common knowledge. That article is a great read.
Those cables have been proven to be full of shit. Go to Wikipedia and read the accounts of the survivors that were pulled out by the CIA in Operation yellowbird https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowbird if you want to piece together what happened from primary sources.
Ya know I dont know if thats legit NSFL or if im just that desensitized to war photos. Maybe giving 12 year old me a book on the civil war that included post battle photos and sections from a contemporary medical book with photos from the mangled corpses wasnt the wisest move by my grandmother. But ya know what those photos do invoke within me absolute fucken rage.
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Uh oh, did they take it down?
That’s a lot of bicycles!
Damn malicious AI image generators trying to tarnish the good name of the CCP. Smh. (/s)
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It’s pretty amazing how they let that guy just harass a tank for several minutes and even climb on it, then just kinda let him be led away by bystanders.
For some reason growing up I think everyone assumed he got ran over or killed?
For some reason growing up I think everyone assumed he got ran over or killed?
Because hundreds if not thousands of others were (others have already linked the graphic content).
Also, seeing him being led away in this footage is zero evidence that he survived his protest (unsurprisingly, there is no documentation of him or what the government did to him, but considering what they did to others like him, there is very little room to doubt that he didn’t make it).
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I’ll play devil’s advocate - the photographs don’t seem to show evidence of thousands dying, or even hundreds necessarily. Dozens, absolutely. I doubt we’ll ever know the actual numbers, though. Clearly something awful happened.
Edit: I mean, they really don’t… and if they “only” ran over fifty civilians with tanks I think we can still consider that an unforgivable example of state violence. It’s not as if the Kent State shootings were okay because they only killed four people.
I’m just saying, I don’t feel the photographic record is a particularly robust source when it comes to supporting those higher claims. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen that way, just that the pictures are inadequate to prove that.
I’ll play devil’s advocate
Devil’s one of the most powerful countries in the world, with people on this platform regularly repeating its propaganda, including in this thread.
Not sure the devil needs an advocate in this case.
It always does, imo. Most of the time devil’s advocate isn’t meant to actually “defend” anything, but to find flaws/imperfections in your logic so you can adjust it and when you have to argue with an actual
Xi bootlicker“devil”, they’ll have less ammo to refute your point.It always does, imo.
Not always. Sometimes it’s just amplifying the devil’s arguments by repetition. Time and place, and all that jazz.
The initial exaggeration was probably unintentional, due to second-hand eyewitness testimony getting relayed as fact in the middle of the chaos. But it was later used to pretend nothing happened, which clearly isn’t the case. My girlfriend is Chinese and has no idea anything ever happened in Tiananmen Square: she didn’t even know that date was censored online, so whatever they’re doing is working very well.
Weird saying when you think about it that way.
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I don’t claim a strong position. I suppose if I had to say, I believe the estimates of between 2-800 dead, mostly in the streets surrounding Tiananmen Square, with a dozen or so police lynchings amongst that number. But it would be weird for me to be overly attached to that as an opinion, as the evidence is unclear. I think Beijing hospital records suggest about 400, so that seems like a safe lower estimate.
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Yes, it’s a reasonable minimum estimate. What is it that you’re disagreeing with? I’ve certainly seen all the pictures. But have a read about the declassified diplomatic cables, it’s interesting. Notably, the mountains of flesh being burned with flamethrowers probably didn’t happen. I have no stake in that, it’s the current position held by the US Government. What happened is still monstrous.
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“Just harass a tank” XD
This man is a fucking hero and deserves to be recognized as such.
This was the photo in my local newspaper when it happened. Source: local paper boy. (Was greyscale)
I’ve seen lots of pictures of Hong Kong protests, and hear about rent protests in Beijing, but haven’t seen many photos like this in Beijing proper in the 21st century. Are they that good at scrubbing the web, or did I just miss them?
The Tiananmen Square protest and massacre happened in 1989.
Yes, that would be the 20th century.
I think they’re saying that, in the 21st century they haven’t seen many pictures of the event. Not that they haven’t seen pictures from the 21st century.
China’s internet is isolated from the rest of the world. We would be looking at a lot of content created from china if it wasn’t like that.
You never visited the Wikipedia page before?
The wikipedia page doesn’t have any version of this image. Regardless, the most shared images are closer up and from the ground, showing about 5 tanks, not this version with 50 tanks. The image of him sitting in front of a few tanks was the most widely used I believe.
If I remember correctly, the version OP posted was newly found/released only a few years ago. E: this is what I was thinking of.
Thanks for the link, but it still doesn’t have this picture.
You just have missed the section where it showed that photo.
Nope, OP’s picture is not shown there. Only a picture that was taken earlier.
It’s quite obvious now that you didn’t even view the Wikipedia page of tank man and look at the other photos
Only a picture that was taken earlier.
Note the distance
I imagine most people don’t visit that page. It’s totally normal.
What is Wikipedia?
i assumed it was a meme post until i looked at the community name
All of those tanks are just on patriotic vacation. There is no other reason for them to be there.
Funny you say that, because a ton of military equipment circles the place like every year.
That’s odd, because that’s the photo I immediately think of when the massacre is brought up. I thought it was really well-known.
Most people think of this one
That’s almost exactly the same angle as the one OP posted lol
OP probably meant “perspective”, not literally “angle”.
Yeah I figured as much
Except that this photo is way more zoomed in. A photograph of a house from above is not the same as a photograph of earth from space, even though the angle might be the same.
Didn’t say the photo was the same, only said the angle is almost identical, which it is.
Even so, t’s off by at least some 45°. This picture was taken from way higher up (compare the position of the white lights in the pictures) and more to the left (see the ratio of the tanks side and front).
45° is a huge exaggeration. Yes, slightly higher up and slightly to the left, an angle that’s almost identical to the one OP posted, as I’ve been saying.
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Is that a picture of John Cena and Drax?
No.
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Claims this is propaganda
Refuses to elaborate
Wow this really convinced me.
Get out of here with the CCP version. As if anyone believes your shit. And learn to spell, bot. Lemmy.ml isn’t lemmygrad’s alt account, noooo.
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“The US version” being the version the entire rest of the world and anyone who isn’t a delusional bootlicker who stans authoritarianism says is true?
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It’s funny that even CCP acknowledges around 200 killed civilians and yet shits like you exist…
Can you point to the Balkans?
So what happened then?
‘on this site, in 1989, nothing happened’
https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/ns95id/beijing_june_5th_tank_man_stopping_tanks_from/
If you want to read the other side of the story
Notably the mod posted a cbs link that says the reporter never saw any bodies because the military arrested him and held him captive. But the mod doesn’t quote the part of the article where the reporter says people were definitely killed
But there’s no question many people were killed by the army that night around Tiananmen Square, and on the way to it — mostly in the western part of Beijing. Maybe, for some, comfort can be taken in the fact that the government denies that, too.
