I think the main issue is NPC quests, they are complete nonsense and fail automatically based on arbitrary triggers.
I have 300 hours in the game and I’ve only seen the default ending 🫠
Yeah, this bummed me out in the game, a bit. Not like I was not expecting it though.
Agreed. I don’t mind non-intuitive quest steps, but completely missable items, abilities and other content is inexcusable. That’s why we have to look up wikis…
The questlines are so intuitive that some were missing an ending for a few months due to bugs and nobody noticed.
I acknowledge the ambitious scope of the game, but that’s actually sad.
Most players use guides to play that game?
Is that common these days?
It doesn’t seem very fun.
FromSoft sort of brought it upon themselves with their design philosophy to be fair, going back at least as far as Dark Souls. Selling a DLC and having it locked behind a convoluted puzzle you wouldn’t figure out without a guide was certainly a choice, for example.
Case in point: I played dark souls for 30 minutes and then gave up.
Did not seem worth it.
30 minutes is not nearly long enough to get to anything convoluted.
Not at all convoluted, dark souls seemed very simple, just deliberately constructed to prevent player progression or exploration without any good reason to.
Here is a game. Do not play the game.
The controls were not great, as far as I remember. The first zombie I encountered could just tap me out unless I dodged it correctly and I hit it like 10 times and nothing happened and then it got boring.
I guess 11 strikes kills it? Yeah I’m not going to do that for 3 hours without any reason to.
There was no lore or intro to show why I should care about the game or it’s characters or anything.
Does the story get interesting? Because the gameplay was trash and nothing indicated that it was going to get better as the game progressed.
Were you trying to kill the zombie before you get a weapon in the tutorial?
This was years ago, and the controls and camera were so janky I didn’t play very long, so I really can’t remember, it just felt like the beginning.
I am checking a playthrough. I remember beating this asylum demon and all of these items.
The controls were so slow and confining, I stopped playing after the asylum demon. I didn’t feel like stutter rolling 100 times for every boss.
In all the games, your roll speed is determined by your equipment load. You may have picked a starting class that had heavy load, and thus a slow roll. You can take off armor to lower your load.
I think all the games after ds1 show you the percentage of your equip load.
I like the idea of Soulslikes. I want to like playing them (some of them, I do: Hellpoint, The Surge, the Jedi games). But I can’t bring myself to slog through it just to say I did. It’s not fun or worth it to me.
What do you mean by the idea of soulslikes?
What is the idea that you like about them if you don’t like the slog?
Is the slog not the idea of souls likes?
And what did you like about the three games you mentioned that made you slog through their entire games that was different than elden ring?
I did the same when it first came out, gave it another try during covid when the remastered version came out, absolutely loved it. Got all achievements even :P
I’m believing it now that so many people have explained how much they like the games to me and why.
Even watching the beginning of this playthrough to see how far I got through dark souls 1, which was just to the asylum demon, it looks awesome.
I think I just really would have liked some explanation of any of the gameplay mechanics in a summarized form that I didn’t have to hunt for.
But I’m going to start with elden ring, because I do like open worlds, and I’m just going to see how that grabs me.
Did you play DS1 remastered on the switch?
Nah, pc gamer here, I honestly can’t imagine it runs very well on Switch :/ especially when you get to Blight town
Maybe that was part of the problem I had. I figured since it was an older game it wouldn’t be a big deal.
I’ll definitely try the PC version next time.
You can hardly judge a game this size based on a single boss fight :P
I definitely didn’t judge it on the boss fight.
But that’s literally the point of these games compared to everything else that’s out there.
Where else do I get cryptic puzzles and unforgiving exploration without a map full of markers?
But that’s literally the point of these games compared to everything else that’s out there.
I don’t think that’s entirely true. There are lots of people who play them mostly for the challenge of learning and beating the (mostly) well designed bosses.
Where else do I get cryptic puzzles and unforgiving exploration without a map full of markers?
Outer Wilds? Subnautica?
But the bosses are only half the game if that. The getting to the bosses and exploring an unforgivable world is so core to the experience that you can’t just overlook it.
There are also a lot of games out there like monster hunter that focus on quick boss action.
Outer wilds has a great story but no combat and Subnautica has way too much resource gathering and open world grinding a la Minecraft.
The fromsoft Souls games are still the place for unforgiving exploration and combat. They shouldn’t have to compromise on the unique experience and simplify it for everyone and ruin what makes them good.
If you try to appeal to everyone you loose what makes you special and become generic. Look at resident evil 6 for the perfect example.
( I do have to note I’m all for accessibility options, giving more people access is very important, but it shouldn’t change the core game into something else. Just play a different game, we have so many options nowadays it’s overwhelming. )
They shouldn’t have to compromise on the unique experience and simplify it for everyone and ruin what makes them good.
When was this ever about compromising the vision or changing the games? I thought this was about the use of guides while playing.
I’m perfectly happy for all the players who spend thousands of hours scrounging every surface, making conspiracy-boards out of item descriptions and feverishly figuring out every hidden secret in these games by themselves.
It’s still completely valid to enjoy all the rest the games have to offer and look at the wiki for how you access the secret area with the hidden boss.
Where else do I get cryptic puzzles and unforgiving exploration without a map full of markers?
Lunacid
Tangentially related, I played over 30 hours of Elden Ring before learning there were Map Fragments. The first one I found was way up north. I just assumed the world map was supposed to be dogshit.
I wasn’t happy for having gotten through without them, I was honestly just kinda pissed that they didn’t do some minimal nudging towards the first one.
The first one is a big glowing item by a big stone marker that the graces point you to. It’s also marked on the unrevealed map.
The graces pointed me up the gulch to the north, after first pointing to the encounter with what’s-her-name. They did not at any time point at the map fragment. It wasn’t big and glowing, it was quite tiny when I finally went back to investigate.
Maybe something they’ve changed with patches 🤷🏻
Also it’s “marked” on the unrevealed map, but unless you know what the mark means, it doesn’t look anything like a map.
There are some things you just can’t do without a guide/wiki. For example the achievements of “collect every weapon/ring”.
Also, the NPC quests are just undoable. There are basically no hints as to how to do them, and there are many ways to permanently lose the quest. Doing correctly a NPC quest going blind as an average player consists of plain luck.
Okay, thanks
I think most people have used guides, but I wonder how much guide people use. Take me for instance, I play blind as much as possible, but I look up a guide to see if there are any weapons that I can miss in a playthrough.
Same. I consider myself a purist when it comes to guides, but… I need my giant sword lol
A few comments have mentioned they play blind as much as possible. How much is it possible to play the game blind?
Is it after 20% of the game you have to use a guide no matter what?
Think of it less as “at the 20% mark you’ll need a guide” and more “you’ll probably only FIND 20% of the game your first playthrough without a guide” - you’ll find the critical path, you’ll beat the game, but without a TON of tenacity, you won’t complete a lot of the side quests, and probably won’t even find some. You probably won’t really have a grasp on what conditions you need to get an ending you like, etc.
All of it CAN be found, can be done, without a guide, and you’ll probably have a blast doing it, it’s just a matter of the time and commitment you want to/are able to put in.
I see. As long as the main quest itself isn’t literally hidden and impossible to find without a guide, I’m fine.
Yeah, 100%. There are some much more obvious signs posts around the main quest stuffs.
I typically play the FromSoft games without a guide the first time through, then look up what I missed for subsequent playthroughs.
You don’t really need to follow a “build” guide because it’s not really that kind of game. There are a lot of weapons to choose from, and some choices in rings, but it’s not like Path of Exile where you have a ton of interconnected, semi permanent changes.
I feel like dark souls games are the only time I ever hear about build guides, what kind of games require build guides if not the dark souls ones?
Man, I guess I should just try playing elden ring already haha.
I mean, a lot of the “build guides” online are just trash from youtubers and whatnot trying to get clicks. You don’t need to follow a complicated youtube video to get “Raise HP and Stamina, get a big spear, get a big shield, stab baddies.”
Do you know Path of Exile? Go look at how that game works. You really want to follow a guide there or you’re likely going to find halfway through that your character is too weak, and you’re too poor to reset it. Other games that are close relatives to Diablo2 often feel like they need build guides. They often have mutually exclusive build choices and a lower player-skill factor.
Oh, I found Diablo 2 totally fine. I played that for the first time maybe 6 months ago? Really fun.
I don’t know path of exile. I’m going to look into elden ring now though.
Interest is piqued since people are telling me it’s more open world than it seems from youtubers and crap like you’re talking about.
It isn’t. Having to look up everything about a game to know how to play doesn’t make a fun game. I quit games with convoluted solutions. I’m not a Dark Souls player for that reason.
It’s really not that difficult to go through these games with minimal guide use. If you’re looking to 100% them, then yes, a guide is essential to use. And you always have summoning in boss battles, and ER added npc summons too. Once you just embrace the games with an open mind , they become more enjoyable.
I do like the paper instruction booklets that more complicated games used to come with, but that was introducing game elements so that you could use them in the game.
It seems like dark souls games require you to literally follow step by step what another person did or you can’t even play the game.
Is there any lore to those games? Maybe I’ll just treat them like a novel if the lore is good?
But I never heard anyone saying oh the story is so good for elden ring. All I hear is gosh Melania or bull-man is so difficult it took me 68 tries following this guide until I got to their second form.
Because tons of people play those games right? Why are they playing a game that requires so little creative input from the player?
It seems like dark souls games require you to literally follow step by step what another person did or you can’t even play the game.
This is not true at all.
Because tons of people play those games right? Why are they playing a game that requires so little creative input from the player?
The execution of the gameplay is very fun. It is extremely satisfying to defeat many of the bosses.
Exploration can be fun, though using a guide minimizes this.
So there is exploration in elden ring?
The way everybody talks about it, it sounds like you just walk from one boss to the next boss, follow the guide for that boss and then follow the guide to the next boss.
And there’s a hundred bosses.
Yeah, a guide will say like, “okay, first go to stormveil. To do that you’ll have to kill Margit. Go more or less north from the start.”
Between the start and Margit is like, easily 5+ hours first time for a decently experienced player. There are tons of caves and miniature dungeons and other cool things to explore. The individual challenges, you’re more or less doing yourself. Unless you’re watching a video walkthrough. No comment there. Imma let people enjoy their way. Some guides include tips for certain particularly brutal areas, or build ideas of you’re struggling, but those are absolutely not required to play the game, and if anything removes some of the sense of satisfaction from overcoming.
Then, there are things like the interactive map. Elden ring is a huge open world. Really all of the souls games are open, non-linear, and thoughtfully connected worlds, but elden ring is the only one of call " open world". If you really want to see just how dense the world is, and how little using a general route guide actually ruins for you, I encourage you to take a gander at it before playing. The world is FUCKING HUGE.
I think one of the coolest things with FS games is, the level of hand holding you get is pretty much what you want to look for. You CAN watch a video walkthrough and follow it step by step, sure. You can read a general route guide to have a bit of bearing. You can just use the interactive map, to uncover things you may not otherwise. And, if you’re so inclined, you can raw dog the Panda Between, just you and your own wits.
Okay, that’s great to hear.
I should definitely be jumping into the open world version of these games, since exploration and character development. is what I enjoy most in any game.
Thanks
It’s a big open world. You can just wander off and see what you find. Lots of caves and catacombs, but also some big dungeons, a couple swamps, a horrifying lake of rot, a horrible place with giant dogs and birds the birds are worse, a forest with bears, and more. At least two large areas are just completely missable/skippable.
You don’t need to “follow a guide” for the bosses. People write them and they can be useful if you get stuck. But, like, you can figure it out. Old man tries to hit you with club. Don’t let him do that. Then he pulls out a hammer. Don’t let him hit you with that. You can look up the details for like “He takes the hammer out at 60% health, and usually throws a dagger and then jumps” but you don’t really need to look that up. You just see it happen. Though sometimes the wiki is useful for like “Is this boss immune to poison?” questions
Huh, interesting. Yeah I think I’m asking about all of these details so much because I want to play it, I’m coming around trying elden Ring, especially if it’s more open world than I got the impression of from all the Reddit posts haha
It’s very open but at the same time not level gated. As in you can stumble into areas where enemies are much stronger than before. Hell, they literally put a super strong boss in the field just outside the first door to the first area designed to beat the ever living shit out of you in an effort to teach you “yeah, he is too much, go explore somewhere else”
Think of guides in FS games more like MapQuest directions. It’ll tell you to take a left at a certain exit, but not all of the traffic between here and there. You gotta navigate that bit on your own, just here’s a sign post to follow.
As far as lore goes, that’s one of the most compelling things about the games. They’re absolutely oozing more from every possible orifice. The worlds are so dense and thematic, and the lore isn’t spoon fed with excessive cutscenes and talking, it’s largely given to you environmentally. Placement of items and enemies, item descriptions that feel like they’re telling you bits of legend. Stuff like that.
Okay, cool. I do like that kind of world building.
I had no idea elden ring was open world at all so that’s a surprising and welcome revelation.
You should take a gander at the YouTube account VaatiVidya. He does deep dive lore videos on most or all of the FS games, and shows the in-game sources for most or all of the lore he covers. It’s remarkable how much they tell you with so little.
Oh, that’s awesome, I’ll get into that after I play the game myself, thanks for the recommendation. I’ll save this comment
I can get it for one or two really hard puzzles in a game, but elden ring at least had no need for a guide at all
Eh, maybe after they added the NPC icons to the map. At launch, there was basically zero chance you’d complete any NPC quests on your own.
So you’re only the second commenter here who said you don’t need a guide for elden ring, and definitely the only one that says there’s " no need for a guide at all".
Do you mean to get to the next boss you don’t need a guide but you still need a guide to fight the next boss?
Did you play elden ring without a guide?
Not the guy you replied to. I think I’ve looked up guides or tips for bosses like… 3 times in all of the from soft games. Bosses are largely puzzles to be figured out. They’re some of the most engaging moments of gameplay, and, barring gimmick bosses, reading a guide for them still doesn’t do the work of beating it for you anyway. They’ll just give you some things to look for and some general advice, then the rest is on you.
Sounds good, I’m definitely going to give elden ring a shot.
Eh, if you want specific endings you need a guide or you can spend hundreds of hours finding and talking to each npc after each boss fight. I don’t have that kind of time and I don’t like getting locked out of things because I only talked to the creepy dead looking guy five times instead of six.
But the game itself is still worth it despite not being able to play it without someone telling you how to play it the entire game?
There’s so many good games that are fun to explore and progress through, why stick with one that you can’t even play unless you follow instructions minute by minute?
I know this game was popular, so there must be some reason.
Quest guides like what Belgdore is talking about just tell you who to fight/talk to if you want to finish certain quests or get certain endings. It doesn’t tell you how to fight your battles and usually doesn’t even cover how to get there (unless its especially arcane – looking at you Millicent).
Further, the best part of these kinds of games (at least IMO) is the adventure itself. Working through a zone to a boss and then learning how to overcome the boss is the fun part. It’s the part of the game that makes you hone your skill as a player and “git gud”. Quest guides… stat build guides… pretty much anything short of a zone walkthrough or boss mechanic overview won’t help you with that.
Okay, I definitely like exploring new areas and finding out what’s going on, and kicking ass of course.
I can only remember posts about how to technically defeat this or that regarding elden ring, so I thought that’s all there was to it.
Especially because there were so many posts, but none of them reflected anything except the technical mechanics of dodging after this fire ring or whatever.
I never look at “how to beat certain bosses” guides, usually it’s very hard to understand anyway and I have much more fun learning the bosses movesets myself… Not to say there isn’t a lot of trial and error dying, oh there is a lot of that.
It’s not about REQUIRING a guide to do anything, it’s that if you’re trying to do one specific thing, or have a bit of assistance navigating exactly where you’re supposed to go next, they’re indispensable.
I definitely could have played elden ring without a guide. Problem is, the world is HUGE, and there are many endings with specific requirements. I don’t have hundreds of hours to pour into one game, even one I’m quite enjoying. I also want to see more of the plot, and that tends to require seeing multiple endings or other specific, exclusive, quest lines. All of which is just more approachable with a guide.
Some of the fun in from soft games comes from the exploration, but a lot of it is mechanically focused. Git gud. That, and being steeped in a fascinating, dark world, tend to be what keep me coming back. A guide helps keep me from feeling too frustrated just wondering where I should go.
So there’s obviously hundreds of hours of not-main content in the elder scrolls games, but if you spent enough time, you’ll find the majority of it without following a guide.
I spent hundreds of hours in each of them.
Does that work with all of these side quests in elden ring, or do I still need to know to walk back and forth against a certain tile three times before lighting a torch to access a lot of the side quests?
It’s less esoteric than that. There’s rhyme and reason to all of the individual steps of the quest lines, but sometimes if you aren’t thinking juuuuuust like the devs want it can be a bit of a leap.
I haven’t played it since launch, but apparently they’ve added map markers for NPCs you have already met, that’ll make it significantly easier to understand what they’re wanting you to do, I think.
Interesting. Well I’m excited to get started, so thanks for all the context
No problem, bud! Elden Ring is a good start for the series, imo, because it’s as open as it is. If you enjoy it, honestly, go back and give the dark souls series another shot after understanding their design philosophy a bit more.
As much as I love the world of elden ring, nothing will compare to the level of interconnected labyrinths that connect back on each other so elegantly that dark souls 1 has. Enjoy your time!
Usually just to figure out a build that lets them explore without getting completely merked
Yeah yeah git gud and whatever but some folks just want to see the cool story without having to become a dodge rolling master.
So you can progress through the game without a guide if you use a guide first to build a super strong character?
That still doesn’t seem like a very fun game mechanic.
Is that what people mean when they say it’s a souls-like game? A game you can’t play unless you follow a guide?
Or is it more like just fight a boss than another boss and another boss in increasing difficulty?
Because I played another crabs treasure, but eventually had to lower the difficulty and then quit because at that point I’m just doing stupid fetch quests to fight bosses that I literally have to fight dozens of times just so I can make sure to dodge .7 seconds after they raise one of their legs two dozen times?
Looking at you, samurai sushi crab.
That got pretty boring.
Not even that, most souls games will have at least a couple of decently accessible items that will help you turn down the early game pressure if you want to make progress without having to do the whole git gud routine for every next corner in the road with a stone troll sitting on it.
Git gud means repeating confrontations over and over and over until you get used to the minute differences in the enemies movements and timing, and then just doing that for the entire game?
Or is it more like wow grinding until your level increases? Cuz that never grabbed me either.
So do these games have a compelling story or is it just a series of enemies that go from like half a second Dodge opportunity to a tenth of a second Dodge opportunity?
“git gud” in fromsoft games covers a few important skills.
The most important is just paying attention. Way back when Dark Souls 1 was out, people would say the traps in Sen’s Fortress were “bullshit trial and error gameplay”. It’s a narrow hall with a pressure plate, and when you step on it darts shoot out of the wall at you. This can kill you. But if you pay any attention at all you can see the clearly raised pressure plate, and the holes the darts come out of. You can then just roll through the trap or use a shield to block the darts. It’s easy if you notice it. Many of the enemies are placed in ways that if you look around and go slow, you’ll see them with plenty of time to plan.
The second most important skill is probably staying calm. There’s a part in the first game where I fell through a hole and landed surrounded by death lizards. If I had panicked, I would’ve died an especially horrible death. Folks would describe that as “bullshit”- you fall a long way and then suddenly lizards and poisonous gas! But I didn’t panic. I looked around, found the stairs, and ran the fuck away. Once I had a little distance, I was able to kill the lizards. They’re not especially fast or deadly on their own, but their poison gas will ruin your day if you let it. But panicking would get you killed there. There’s also Stormgate in Elden Ring, where you can easily draw the attention of like ten dudes. You know what the answer is there? Run the fuck away. Don’t get tunnel vision. Don’t button mash. Turn around and run.
Third is probably resource management. This is closely related to staying calm. Most of the games have Stamina as a resource. If you just button mash you’re going to have a bad time. You need to not over extend. You’ll have a bad time if you empty your stamina and can’t block or dodge. There’s also spells and heals to manage. You probably don’t want to blow all your big spells on trash. Basic stuff.
Lastly, there’s the stuff everyone talks about and thinks is super important: Recognizing enemy moves and reacting in time. It’s kind of overblown. Most of the enemies attack a lot slower than they feel when you’re in a panic. Plus, you can really mitigate a lot of this by building towards your strengths as a player. I can’t parry, so I don’t try and don’t rely on it. If you’re not good at dodging, probably slap on a tower shield and heavy armor. You don’t really need especially good reflexes to win with a shield + spear build. Magic can also do it, if you’re decent at spacing. And if you really get stuck, use a summon.
People act like you need lightning reflexes to play these games and you really don’t.
Got it, thanks for explaining. That makes the games sound a lot more approachable.
Is there any exploration or world building to elden ring or is it strictly a linear progression from enemy to stronger enemy?
Elden Ring is a huge open world.
From the start you can kind of go where it points you. It will try to teach you without words “you don’t have to fight everything you see.” You can just go around things.
There’s like 3 or 4 little side areas right near the start. The map kind of points you north to a big castle, but you can fuck off to the southern area if you want. Or go to the horrible wasteland. Or figure out how to skip the whole castle and go to the big lake area. Or skip that, too, and go to the nice autumn area. Lots of choices. Not linear.
Git gud is definitely more the first kind of grinding more than the second
Basically the theory that even if it’s like bashing your head against a brick wall, it’s gonna be extremely cathartic when you finally manage to knock that wall down
Hahah thanks for the description, that I totally understand.
So you can progress through the game without a guide if you first follow a guide to build up a character, that means you won’t get your ass handed to you every minute?
St
Personally I’ll use a guide if I’m really stuck but otherwise I try to go blind. And I use the wiki to find out where to get cool weapons
I’m not a fan of guides, i think i would rather watch someone play the game. But to find specific things in elden ring, you either play the game 20 times and find it or you just don’t. The thing that i really don’t understand is guides on youtube that are: how to get overpowered soon in eldenring. And things like that. That’s just godmode or similar cheats, but with extra steps. Why not just download some mods with the stuff you want or whatever, because you’re still not really beating the game, you follow someone’s instruction to play “his game.”
I think most players use guides for most games that are more complex than, say, Mario.
Although not necessarily following a guide for every step, usually just looking up stuff that they have questions on.
I haven’t met a gamer younger than me that doesn’t use a guide for every fucking game. Even the ridiculously easy ones.
This is absolutely my biggest complaint with Elden ring. You either use a guide or play the game 100 times trying to figure everything out. There are times where the dude literally tells you he’s going to be in a specific area and then he literally isn’t anywhere close to where he says he’s gonna be. It’s my first souls game and it was pretty frustrating for me.
I dunno. I kind of like it. It means for your first playthrough. You will get a very unique experience, different from your friends. You found different things.
Then again. Who in their right mind understands you can use a prattling pate to tell bock “you’re beautiful”? That’s just insane. Or maybe I’m just not smart enough.
It’s also really easy to lock yourself out of questlines by completing seemingly unrelated objectives. I get that being inscrutable is kind of a hallmark of these games, but I found myself unable to dig into some of the plotlines that really intrigued me.
I try to always play games blind but some things in elden ring i hardly understood with a guide. Or you get locked out easily out of quests. I was talking to an npc for a quest and accidentally hit attack and killed him. I was walking past that talking bush like 100 times and had no idea what’s even going on. I thought it’s a glitch, invisible npc or something. Even after looking it up i couldn’t find it. He’s still there in his bush. Or not, i don’t even know. I found out some hard puzzles accidentally. But at the end of the day as long as i get through the game i’m happy. I’m no completionist.
This is just how fromsoft does things. Pretty weird but having played every souls game to completion and several of their other games just a bit, I feel like you get used to it. The only thing that bothered me about elden ring is that it just didn’t seem to outshine previous titles by enough (or at all) to be particularly excited about it.
I feel like its the same thing as how I can try to hop in something entirely new to me like baldurs gate 3 and there is just so much overwhelming shit that I’m not used to (still put in a good chunk of time and not done yet), but as a long time souls player, ER just felt like a new region and some new items and quests in a souls game. Oh and different timings for otherwise familiar mechanics I guess.
Haven’t played Elden Ring, but I hate when games establish some way to play in the tutorial and when you watch some guides they first tell you to ignore what the game taught you.
Star Wars Squadrons was such an offender. Star Craft kind of is because singleplayer balancing is different from multiplayer. Can’t think of more now but I have a feeling like that’s the case with many games.
So, great that Elden Ring wants to tackle that. Ideally a game should teach you the ideal way to play.
Arguably the first Dark Souls is one of these. Most of the classes push you towards shields as the cornerstone of defense. The studio felt like this overemphasis on shields was such a mistake they took 2 whole games (Bloodborne and Sekiro) in an almost entirely shield-free direction to teach players there were other ways.
Pyromancy (and magic in general) were also undervalued in DS1 initially due to how the game presents them. People eventually figured out that Pyro is so OP you don’t even need to use leveling with it to have an easy time.
Arguably the first Dark Souls is one of these. Most of the classes push you towards shields as the cornerstone of defense. The studio felt like this overemphasis on shields was such a mistake they took 2 whole games (Bloodborne and Sekiro) in an almost entirely shield-free direction to teach players there were other ways.
That’s more the studio changing design philosophy rather than the game giving poor hints, I would argue. Shields are very viable through all of DS1.
Elden Ring’s tutorial consists of a single little cave that merely tells you all the basics of the game (how to move, your basic attack buttons, dodging, blocking, parrying, backstabs, sneaking, posture breaking and guard breaks) and then gives you an emote to perform as if to say “have fun” on your way out. The best part, to me coming from previous From games, is that you can skip it. It’s just off to the right from where you start the game proper and if you don’t want that emote, you can just go off to play the game. All the other games have a forced tutorial section (you can still sprint through it though).
The game is amazing. It was easily GOTY for me when I got it and I dumped around 300 hours into it. That said, there are a lot of players out there that really deserve to enjoy it, but it’s insanely tough and not ideal for some people, especially if you’re someone that plays mostly for the story. So I appreciate that the ER devs are thinking about this to some degree.
I feel like aside from full-on accessibility settings for those who need them (which absolutely should be implemented and the FromSoft devs don’t get a pass on this), they could do something as simple as a 2% speed, health, & damage nerf to all their enemies and it could be enough for most newcomers that have paid for the game, but didn’t get anything out of it. Like me. There are probably a huge amount of people that bought the game because of glowing “this is GOTY” reviews and couldn’t get past even Margit.
There’s old guys like me too that don’t have the reflexes the younger gens do lmao. I had to get help from other players on a few occasions.
Honestly, summoning is the accessibility to get through hard areas in FromSoft games (not saying it’s good accessibility, mind you). Summons that won’t die in one hit basically trivialize most single-enemy boss fight since their AI spazzes out because it’s not meant to fight 2 opponents at once.
I really had to embrace summoning and I was fortunate enough to have some nice people. I’m so used to people being dicks on video games, but the soulslike players have been pretty awesome.
I’m in my 40s and I barely made it through a bunch because before playing I hadn’t gamed in a decade, this was my first souls-like, and I’m honestly just not that good.
I never summoned. I only played online long enough to do the white mask quest. I was proud of what I did and very happy with my 100% achievements.
That being said, I wouldn’t begrudge someone turning the difficulty down if it were available. I see anything that allows more people to enjoy it as a win.
One of the worst arguments I had online was about “what is accessibility? How does it fit into multiplayer?”
Is increasing the parry window accessibility? Should you be able to change yours in a competitive match?
Is changing health levels an accessibility option? Should you be able to change that in multiplayer?
My opposite number said they should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want, and if that means spoiling the game for an invader or cooperator well that’s their problem.
I’m sure most people have a more nuanced take.
Or, just make multiplayer (competitive, anyway) locked out if you’re using certain options. If you’re struggling and using accessibility options such as stat buffs/nerfs, you proooooobably don’t want to engage with invaders. And who cares if a friendly summon gets pulled into a slightly easier world? Oh no, I get easier souls, the horror. Now, everyone can play, AND we’re not interfering with anyone else’s gameplay in a meaningful capacity. Win/win.
I would care a little if I got pulled into a coop session that was in godmode. I’m usually playing for fun, not efficiency.
Your stance is generally fine, though.
I found it absolutely dull. Worst $40 I’ve spent in a long time.
Definitely the weakest link in the fromsoft chain for me.
The open world is a downgrade and just spreads out the interesting parts instead of enhancing the exploration. Lots of padding with repeated bosses and dungeons as well.
Quality over quantity please.
The copy and paste bosses were old half way through the game
Also the final boss is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen.
The final boss should have been an ultra secret unlock like the moon presence in Bloodborne.
I still can’t believe they made me fight those magic cat statues as many times as they did.
I’m starting a new character for the dlc and i have to say they did improve the quests compared to the launch version. They added a lot of markers on the map to make them easier to follow.
Isn’t the point of these games is that nothing is marked like that? Thats where the replay value and exploration of Fromsoft games shine compared to other developers.
Too many games have quest markers holding your hand the entire way like a guided tour. I see it as an unaddressed problem with open world games.
If everything is marked how can there be exploration or discovery?
It is marked after you find it.
right but the previous games were a lot smaller. It would take hundreds of hours to do everything in Elden Ring without a quest guide
I got the platinum in way below 100 hours.
It’s a very very padded game if you played the other ones. Lots of empty sandbox space between the good content.
My first playthrough (100%) was 120~ hours. Subsequent playthroughs (not 100%) were 30~ hours.
Once you realize that 95% of side dungeons are literally just the same filler content with useless summons and weapons, and that you really only need to do, like, 6 to get useful loot for your build, the game gets a lot shorter lol
Which is great tbh, I do the 6 side content dungeons to get my shit, farm the bird to get levels, and then roam aroundbdoing filler content to test my setup. Or be summoned by friends and skip all that.
Most side content dungeons and caves are really similar but distinct enough to be enough to do while waiting for a friend to upgrade their weapons, or to test out mettle against a single enemy (gaols).
It’s a game with a lot of “content” but a very simple main path. I’ve done all possible paths with several characters, most of those in ng+2 and one in ng+4 I think. I asked a friend for help to get the end boss weapon to farm runes more efficiently with a new character to preapre for the dlc. The new weapons have me very hyped.
Oh yeah, for sure. I like it too.
I always find it funny when people react to Myazaki saying the game is supposed to be around 30 hours by going “UUUUHHHH??? My playthrough was like a billion hours???”
Like, yeah, if you do everything it’ll take a while, but it’s clearly not made with that in mind. It’s really easy to just not do the whole thing and still have a decent length playthrough.
Honestly, “replay value” is negative for me. I don’t want to do multiple runs for a 90 hour game. There are way too many other interesting games for me to spend that much time playing and replaying just one. I’d rather just use a guide to make sure I don’t miss anything and do a single run.
It’s gonna get exhausting then because there’s a lot of repetitive content to get all the items. You don’t even need to do all content to get all the achievements. A lot of items are unlocked I’m caves, but you don’t need them all to get 100% and most of those won’t fit your stat block so, it’s gonna get exhausting to play the game that way.
You are playing a game of exploration and challenging encounters, not a checklist.
Except I’m not trying to 100% anything? I used a guide just to make sure and I didn’t miss any quests or areas. I didn’t read any spoilers or anything like that.
Sorry, I interpreted the “make sure I don’t miss anything” as “any optional content”, which with so much filler content is not the way to go. Using one not to miss areas and quests is great, I’m an avid wiki user anyway.
In any case, this game particularly does quite well in regard of when you start a questline or which parts you skipped. Both Alexander’s and ranni’s quests can be started in very different ways, either you stumble into them or some NPC tells you about it, and in both cases the conversations are different, although you can progress the same way. Besides some skippable parts. There’s nothing that breaks quests Al’s long as you don’t kill NPCs, I sometimes do some questlines after beating the final boss
It still sucks imo. If you need a guide to find quests or figure out what you’re supposed to do, that’s bad game design.
Don’t blame them after the obscure parts of Dark Souls in the console era where people had no idea how to catch a ride with the Giant Crow back to the undead asylum, and trade items via Snuggly at the bird’s nest. Just one of many examples.
Tbf both of those are completely optional. But to continue tbf, the lord souls are damn near impossible to find if you don’t have the golden fog gate locations memorized / didn’t find them before the lordvessel in the first place.
Still my favorite soulslike tho lol
I mean fuck, world tendency may have been one of the most opaque mechanics ever.
Many players would say he failed on that with some of the NPC side quests already. The only one I thought was weird to follow using just what the game tells me was Millicent’s, and specifically the final part of the quest. You have to kill a thing in a specific location that isn’t really obvious, and then you have to reload the area again for a summon sign to appear (which even when you know where it is can be hard to see where it is). If not for that (or if there was some kind of fucking clue in the room or dialogue from the previous segment) I wouldn’t have needed to use the wiki or a guide for any of them. As far as his games go, ER is the best in this regard, IMO.
FromSoft… how the fuck am I supposed to know that I’m supposed to go to a single random point of grace and pick a dialogue option to talk to a doll… not once… but MULTIPLE TIMES in a row while nothing happens before the quest finally progresses.
Seriously it’s the bizarrely obscure stuff like this, or expecting that after every single boss I’ll just randomly wander the entire world and talk to everyone just in case they moved or have something new to say. Drives me up the wall. I like that FromSoft is okay with you missing content so they shut up and get out of the way but some of these quests are cryptic as hell.
Shockingly great attitude for a game studio at a time when so many games are shipped buggy as hell and unfinished
Disclaimer: I did read it.
Is it just most players of these games that use guides or like all games? If it’s all games, I find that fascinating.
I absolutely hate needing to look anything up, and I get super upset with myself when I don’t think of the convoluted solution or discover the hidden quest on my own. I shouldn’t, sure, but always have. Since getting stuck in the vine forest in illusions of Gaia on SNES (think of the korok forest in breath of the wild, or the woods to Canada in the South Park games -wrong turn reset), and needing my older sister, who didn’t game, to navigate it for me, I’ve always wanted to solve it myself.
I mean I look stuff up if I really get stuck, or if I’m not sure the game has “missable” stuff (which I absolutely hate, because I’m not gunna play a game through again in most cases to make different choices; too many games I haven’t played for that to be desirable), but I hate doing it and don’t internally understand why you’d want to, I suppose.
Like I’m not judging anyone who does, those guides totally exist for a reason… I just have never understood the print guide or super detailed walkthrough thing, because it’s the opposite of how I like games. I always wondered who they were made for.
I think it chases a different goal. Guideless chases the experience and struggle, guided chases the power fantasy and complete victory/domination over all challenges. Both are valid I think, but I’m a very strict guideless type of player in all games.
That’s fair.
I’m a big fan of 100% in games (well, that used to mean a lot more before achievements and open world everything, but I do still try) and do it without guides, but I do totally get that different people play differently, so no judgement.
I was playing an RPG and I started using a guide because there were a lot of ridiculous consequences and missables. Like, you didn’t check the third closet? Well you can never come back to this house and now you can never upgrade your shield. You didn’t go back to the river between missions 3 and 4, because nothing told you to do so? Well you don’t get a whole ass party member and you never can. I found this really annoying.
By contrast, Elden Ring playing blind I missed a lot of stuff, but it didn’t feel so final. I could go back and reexplore in the same playthrough up until the point of no return. I missed the sorcerer training lady for hours and hours, but it wasn’t like “well now you can never learn magic”
But that’s where a lot of the roll playing and replay value comes in.
More games need to have actually hidden content, secrets and obscure mechanics. Fomo is holding back so much of gaming. All nuance and thought is being lost when it comes to structuring games these days because the devs don’t want players to feel the bad fomo while also using fomo as a motivator for sales with timed sales and events.
What’s the point if the whole game is just a checklist of chores and none of the exploration or choices I make change anything?
The examples I gave aren’t interesting or meaningful choices.
Witcher 2 has two mutually exclusive middle acts. That’s cool.
Elden Ring has a bunch of optional stuff that you can miss, but missing it doesn’t really adversely affect the game. You also have most of the time to go find stuff. I really dislike “missables” that are like “if you don’t do this arbitrary thing right now, you miss out, even if it makes no narrative sense.”
That’s a whole other beast than guide dang it stuff. Like “if you lose this card to this kid, then win that card from that lady, repeat four times, you get the mega summon.” Stuff you’d never figure out. I think ff10 also has some of that nonsense.
That kind of guide dang it has nothing to do with nuance or intersting choices.
I’d argue it does.
If you can miss anything at all, how’s it any different from a hand guided tour?
How are you supposed to build intrigue or mystery day one of release if nothing is hidden? The whole dark souls community coming together every time a new games gets released and people comb over everything inch to see what they can find.
All of that is gone if nothing is hidden or if everything is obvious.
It’s ok to miss something, it’s fine that you didn’t get the best reward or lost the chance to get a cool weapon. Not having the opportunity to lose them removes all uniqueness and value that finding them would bring.
Fomo is a hell of a drug.
Not having the opportunity to lose them removes all uniqueness and value that finding them would bring. This statement is false.
Even in Elden Ring, the game at hand, there is a counter example. If you miss Ranni at the first grace, the summoning bell shows up in the shop. Would it be a better game if it didn’t, and you were permanently locked out of summons because you never went back to the first grace? No. No it would not. It remains unique and valuable.
Was my playthrough of FF7 enhanced because I didn’t find the ribbon in the temple of ancients? Not especially. Was it further ruined because you can get one much later? No.
How are you supposed to build intrigue or mystery day one of release if nothing is hidden? I’m not advocating for “nothing is hidden”.
Let’s consider some scenarios.
A Baldur’s Gate 2 style RPG. There are many locations you can travel to on the world map. There are several party members you can recruit, where they play roles in your party and the story. You cannot create your own party members.
Scenario A: If you return to location B between Chapter 3 and 4, you will find a wizard. He joins your party. There are no clues indicating you should return to location B. The story in fact guides you towards location C to advance the story.
Option 1: If you do not visit location B during this narrow window of time, the wizard is gone forever. He never joins your party. His role in combat and narrative remains unfilled.
Option 2: If you visit location B during this narrow window of time, the wizard joins your party. However, if you do not, he moves to another location as is appropriate for the story. If you find him earlier, you enjoy the advantages of the wizard earlier. Finding him later may have other disadvantages, such as him starting with a less favorable opinion or requiring resources to recruit him.
I feel like you think Option 1 is better. I think Option 2 is far superior. You get to reward people who are lucky or diligent, and everyone else doesn’t get completely stiffed. Having the wizard show up now or later doesn’t really impact the intrigue or mystery.
FromSoft games are often like this. You can meet NPCs earlier or go find loot sooner, but it rarely does a “You didn’t do this exact thing at this exact time, so now you irreparably miss out.” If you miss the ember in the depths, you can always go back and get it.
There are some things in the FromSoft games that you kind of have one shot at. Mostly the fixed NPC invasions. Those don’t really bother me though since they’re not that big a deal to miss.
There is a difference between locking a core mechanic and additional content. No duh, give the player all the gameplay tools. That shit shouldn’t be missable and nobody is arguing that but you should have missable side quest and loot. Or one way story choices.
Those options you present are not mutually exclusive. You can have multiple quests with different outcomes, both are valid.
But by denying any kind of missable content you are robbing players of potential experiences and catering to fomo.
It’s alright to miss out on something, especially if it’s irreparably. That’s how life works and should be present in games, especially in rpgs.
There is a difference between locking a core mechanic and additional content. No duh, give the player all the gameplay tools. That shit shouldn’t be missable and nobody is arguing that but you should have missable side quest and loot. Or one way story choices.
I like sign posts. It’s fine to me that once you leave Lothering you can’t do the quests there anymore. I don’t really like the “you did a thing, and now you can’t do these other unrelated things” thing. That’s the “You didn’t go to the river to meet the wizard” example. That’s just annoying and arbitrary. That’s not a choice. There’s no way to intuit what’s going to happen. That’s not interesting.
And yes, yes, if I go to the subway now versus an hour from now I’ll see different people and have a slightly different experience, but that’s not very interesting to me. I would be annoyed if a game was like “On day 2, if you go to the subway between 7:58 and 8:03 you meet a wizard and can join his academy” without any foreshadowing or clues. Maybe you like that kind of thing. I’m probably going to use a guide (on a second playthrough if it seems like a game I’ll replay, or right away if it seems like I’m not going to).
you are robbing players of potential experiences
You could easily make the argument that you’re robbing players of potential experiences by putting a cool thing in an easily missable spot. I don’t think that’s a very compelling argument.
That’s how life works and should be present in games, especially in rpgs.
This is a terrible argument. Life is terrible and full of nonsense that does not need to be represented in games. You don’t need to model swallowing water wrong and having a coughing fit in games, but that’s in life all the time. The goal is not to make a completely accurate model of life. The goal is often to make a fun experience.
Anyway. I think we probably disagree in degree rather than in form. A lot of things I don’t really mind are missable- like kirk’s armor in DS1. But some things are just really annoying, like the wizard-at-the-river example. I don’t know if I can come up with an objective rubric for when I go “no, this is bullshit let me see that guide.”
Witcher 2 has two mutually exclusive middle acts. That’s cool.
Well, one of them is.
The “Humans” middle act is so fucking boring!
It’s actually been so long since I played the game I can’t remember either of them very well 😅
Same. I think the human act is just dealing with a Banshee and some harpies while the humans are just complete assholes towards you.
Meanwhile, the non-human act has you going on this cool magical adventure with your friends and a dragon lmao.
Absolutely based behavior
I ran up that dragons wing but didn’t see the room with the ladder just the drop behind the wing, I had to check a guide for that one after a couple days
I think they’re attacking this problem from the wrong angle.
Part of what makes the release of FromSoftware games such an event is working alongside a community. You discover an item location, and tell your friend; or someone online is having a really tough time on a boss, and you share your strategy. These moments are a key part of playing the game on release IMO, and they kinda require some information to be cryptic/difficult or else the community won’t bother.
The biggest issue IMO is that none of this community stuff really happens in game. There’s the message system, which mostly gets ruined because of trolls, and you can kinda get info from phantoms of other players, but the bulk of the information exchange happens on Discord, Youtube, and Reddit.
I hope From continues to make quests that require the player to explore and use their brain, and even do some pretty convoluted steps to activate some quests. Missable content is perfectly fine because I get another try to discover that content the next time I play.
I am so tired of games having quest markers and unmissable content forced upon me.
I wonder if FromSoft would ever compromise like Ubisoft did with Exploration Mode in their Avatar open world game. Ubisoft kinda compromised the other way, by allowing you to toggle off all quest markers and automatic navigation to force you to rely on quest directions. Maybe an optional toggle to turn on those directions?
I hope not. Part of the experience of a FromSoft game, particularly those in their Souls and King’s Field style games, is not handholding the player at all. Not even having an option for it. If you play without a guide and find something cool, and never go online to look anything up, you feel like you’re the only person in the world that discovered it. Not like an Ubisoft game where you dont get to discover anything on your own without the game telling you exactly where to go and what to do.
“Accessibility is bad, don’t let casuals have anything so I can feel special.”
deleted by creator
“I only play games that don’t hold my hand.”
*Uses guides
Pathetic.
Pathetic to not let people play they way they want, maybe?
Like how none of the fanboys want fromsoft to add any sort of easy mode for accessibility? Hypocrites being hypocritical.
I’m one of the fanboys that demands an easy mode so I can get more of my friends gud (and addicted) at FromSoft games and come play with me.
Why should my friends have to put as many hours as I had to, in order to become less bad at FromSoft games? There’s no sense in it, yeah I can carry them and give them all the info they could need, but that takes away from the fun of figuring things out and becoming a parry god.
I do agree with you though, the elitism of many in the community needs to stop (or at least be toned down).
How do you agree with them on elitism? They were being elitist in calling the usage of guides pathetic.
Hadn’t considered that viewpoint, you’re absolutely correct.
When it’s the same people that brag about playing games that don’t hold your hand, it seems hypocritical to find an outside source to HOLD YOUR HAND, doesn’t it?
You have no reason to believe these are exactly the same people. Seems to me you are conflating them because you want to shit on people using guides and at the same time excuse yourself for being an ass because “tHey ArE hyPOcrItEs”.
Even if you were right, what is the problem with people wanting mechanical difficulty and using guides to learn how to master it?
There is an easy mode. You can summon a whole second player for any challenge. If that’s not enough, go level up. Still not enough? Use guides.
Purists are in the minority, hence “most.”
The people in line one of your comment are practically mutually exclusive to the people in line two.
